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Originally Posted by itstarted
"Do you walk to work, or carry your lunch?"
LOL, yeah! I grew up with that saying... grin

Originally Posted by itstarted
itstarted (nervously enters the room)

ummm... I got lost on the first page when liberty and government got mixed in together. My brother-in-law would put the question this way... "Do you walk to work, or carry your lunch?"

Interesting discussion all the way through the 13 pages. Seems to me that the very word "government" puts the lie to all of the definitions I could find. Even the most abstract and "liberal" law, by definition impinges on some "liberty".

What can anyone be "for"... that doesn't become an "against" to someone else.

After reading a few hours worth of essays on the Libertarianism website, I come away with a feeling that "sweetness" is the best description of the general position of the membership.

It seems like the advocates want freedom from government , only until something goes wrong... and then government should step in.

Is this weird of what? Don't make any rules untiil someone gets hurt?


I'm hiding under age, and early onset to account for my vapidity.

... just stopped by to tell you I enjoyed the discourse. blush
Oh me too.
I've enjoyed it too.
You speak my mind, It. Thanks.
Weird indeed.



"Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about learning how to dance in the rain."
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Originally Posted by Greger
Quote
What is a "collective right" and how is it exercised?

A "collective right" really is nothing more than a group of individuals claiming the same individual rights.

When a group of people act in concert to protect an individual right, they are exercising their individual right of association and their individual right to assemble. In so doing, they are engaging in a voluntary collective effort while each exercises her individual right to associate or assemble.
Yours,
Issodhos


"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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Originally Posted by itstarted
itstarted (nervously enters the room)
After reading a few hours worth of essays on the Libertarianism website, ...

the Libertarian website? Are you referring to the website of a political party?
Yours,
Issodhos


"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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Quote
the Libertarian website? Are you referring to the website of a political party?
Yours,
Issodhos

Note "the Libertarianism website" small" "t"
http://www.libertarianism.com/
wink

Last edited by itstarted; 05/24/09 02:32 PM.

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Originally Posted by issodhos
Originally Posted by NW Ponderer
Sorry, I didn't mean to inject any logic or context back into the thread.

Not to fear, NW Ponderer. You didn't.;-)
Nor, my friend, did you provide any. wink


A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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Quote
When a group of people act in concert to protect an individual right, they are exercising their individual right of association and their individual right to assemble. In so doing, they are engaging in a voluntary collective effort while each exercises her individual right to associate or assemble.

That's easy for you to say.........;)


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Originally Posted by Greger
[quote]

Later edit: an association is a legal collective not a political collective.

depends on the association; not all are legal constructs. Nor are legal and political the only options for an association. for example, I might associate with illegal aliens in order to sample the cuisines of their native countries. neither legal nor political.

a kind of libertarian approach to dining out.

Last edited by loganrbt; 05/24/09 04:41 PM.

"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown
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That's where we often run in to trouble. Concerning rights
they might be legal rights, or human rights or civil rights, inherent rights, divine rights, inalienable rights, individual or collective rights, property rights or animal rights or even turns to starboard. Which brings to mind another right:
Red Right Return.
One of the most important of the Nautical Rights.



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-

Sometimes, when I am downtown walking late at night (Yes, I live in a town of 300,000 people where it is safe to walk alone late at night), I will stop at a red light and just stand there. There is no traffic, there are no cops; but I will stand there obeying the traffic regulations. I am not timid; I just like the fact that the traffic system works! It is a moment of aesthetic satisfaction; I savor the immense intricacy of the social co-operation involved!

Maybe I just have a hive-mind? wink

Anyway, other times I just walk across the street against the red light, without a second thought --- so I guess I am not completely a zombie!

Last edited by numan; 05/24/09 10:07 PM.
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It is interesting, my friend, that when we accede to the wishes of the majority, granting some of our native autonomy to the interests of others, that we are deemed "zombies." If they had emotions, I suspect that the real zombies would resent that.


A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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