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I am fairly certain, Ezekiel, that your knowledge of the "Law of Armed Conflict"; Geneva Conventions; The Hague Conventions, & etc., is pretty limited, which is why I prefer not to engage in these discussions. Any effort to actually apply the law to the discussion is usually dismissed off hand, because, as I said, it is not applicable - these quickly become a hermetically sealed discussion based upon previously formed opinion and ideological posturing unrelated to actual application to real world circumstances. I appreciate those who are anti-war - am even quite sympathetic - but that does not equate to anyone who engages in warfare being a "war criminal." When we lose the capacity to make distinctions - even fine distinctions - discussion becomes irrelevant. Broad-brush, nonsensical, divorced-from-reality-or-fact assertions such as "the U.S. being a major offender" demonstrate the shallowness of the analysis. I used to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to educate and discuss, but it became too frustrating.


A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I am fairly certain, Ezekiel, that your knowledge of the "Law of Armed Conflict"; Geneva Conventions; The Hague Conventions, & etc., is pretty limited, which is why I prefer not to engage in these discussions. Any effort to actually apply the law to the discussion is usually dismissed off hand, because, as I said, it is not applicable - these quickly become a hermetically sealed discussion based upon previously formed opinion and ideological posturing unrelated to actual application to real world circumstances. I appreciate those who are anti-war - am even quite sympathetic - but that does not equate to anyone who engages in warfare being a "war criminal." When we lose the capacity to make distinctions - even fine distinctions - discussion becomes irrelevant. Broad-brush, nonsensical, divorced-from-reality-or-fact assertions such as "the U.S. being a major offender" demonstrate the shallowness of the analysis. I used to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to educate and discuss, but it became too frustrating.


Again, NW, your logic is deeply flawed. To discuss actual facts, as those presented, one does not need to engage in legal posturing. The fact that rape is not a military strategy is pretty well established (if it is please present a document saying so).
The fact that killing unarmed civilians (especially non-military women and children) is not a military strategy is also pretty well established.
My assertion of U.S. being a major offender is substantiated in my post, as opposed to your dismissing it based on - hmmmm - what exactly?
I have had military training and am well aware of the so-called rules that no one follows. I have worked with veterans from Vietnam and Iraq and Afghanistan. I have heard their testimony. I don't need an armchair view from 30000 feet that indeed has no basis in reality.
Again, you make no case but continue to whine. Not very convincing.

Last edited by Ezekiel; 12/15/12 02:33 PM.

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As if one needed more evidence. rolleyes


Quote:
In October, the U.S. launched an airstrike in Afghanistan that killed three children ages 8, 10, and 12 - while they were gathering firewood (or by some accounts, dung to burn as fuel).






Quote:
In comments which legal experts and campaigners described as "deeply troubling",army Lt Col Marion Carrington told the Marine Corp Times that children, as well as "military-age males", had been identified as a potential threat because some were being used by the Taliban to assist in attacks against Afghan and coalition forces.




Quote:
Residents of three villages in the Panjwai district of Kandahar Province described a terrifying string of attacks in which the soldier, who had walked more than a mile from his base, tried door after door, eventually breaking in to kill within three separate houses. The man gathered 11 bodies, including those of 4 girls younger than 6, and set fire to them, villagers said.


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"one does not need to engage in legal posturing." I rest my case - no interest in actually applying any legal standard to the actions. Am I saddened and disgusted that civilians die - of course I am. But to discuss war "crimes" without applying the "law" is like running the Romney campaign. "We won't be dictated to by fact-checkers."


A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
"one does not need to engage in legal posturing." I rest my case - no interest in actually applying any legal standard to the actions. Am I saddened and disgusted that civilians die - of course I am. But to discuss war "crimes" without applying the "law" is like running the Romney campaign. "We won't be dictated to by fact-checkers."


ROTFMOL
Still no argument or facts, heim?
I did say "posturing" - an expression I'm sure someone of your education understands very well.


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Taliban take credit for bomb that killed American, Afghans
Quote:
One American was killed and three others were wounded, Panetta said. Two Afghan civilians were killed and 18 others were wounded, said Jawid Faisal, a spokesman for the governor of Kandahar province, in the country's violent southern region.
CNN; Taliban massacres outlined for UN Chicago Tribune. October 2001;
Quote:
In 2007, the number of Afghan civilian deaths stood at more than 230.[17] In 2008, there were about 1,000 civilian deaths attributed to the Taliban.[18] In 2011, the number of civilians killed rose 8% from 2010, with over 3,000 civilian deaths. The vast majority of the casualties were due to activities by insurgents.[19]
link; Afghan civilian deaths hit record high in 2011, U.N. report says.

Just a few "facts" that might have been "overlooked."


A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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So say the wise men of Geneva:


Quote:
(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons: (a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture; (b) taking of hostages; (c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment; (d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.


"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
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If you were truly interested in a discussion, Ezekiel, I'd be happy to engage in one. I have not "postured" at all - I have tried - as you know, on multiple occasions - to bring the actual law into the discussion, but any reference to said law has, as here, been rebuffed as "posturing" or other dismissive terms.


A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Taliban take credit for bomb that killed American, Afghans
Quote:
One American was killed and three others were wounded, Panetta said. Two Afghan civilians were killed and 18 others were wounded, said Jawid Faisal, a spokesman for the governor of Kandahar province, in the country's violent southern region.
CNN; Taliban massacres outlined for UN Chicago Tribune. October 2001;
Quote:
In 2007, the number of Afghan civilian deaths stood at more than 230.[17] In 2008, there were about 1,000 civilian deaths attributed to the Taliban.[18] In 2011, the number of civilians killed rose 8% from 2010, with over 3,000 civilian deaths. The vast majority of the casualties were due to activities by insurgents.[19]
link; Afghan civilian deaths hit record high in 2011, U.N. report says.

Just a few "facts" that might have been "overlooked."


A question fer ya: Is Afghanistan American territory?
Another question fer ya: The fact that someone else commits atrocities justifies you in doing the same?

Please, give me a f**king break!


"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
Lenny Bruce

"The cleverest of all, in my opinion, is the man who calls himself a fool at least once a month."
Dostoevsky



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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
If you were truly interested in a discussion, Ezekiel, I'd be happy to engage in one. I have not "postured" at all - I have tried - as you know, on multiple occasions - to bring the actual law into the discussion, but any reference to said law has, as here, been rebuffed as "posturing" or other dismissive terms.


Not true, NW. The law, as it applies to war, has relevance and I never dismissed it. I said it wasn't being followed.
Not the same thing.
Also, what I contest is the idea that civilian casualties, provoked by ANYONE, are justifiable.
Also, I think it is willing blindness when one refuses to see that their own army has committed the same sins as those of the opposing army and tries to justify it by some convoluted legal technical palaver.
The U.S. is not the only offender, but it is major offender if only by force of the number of wars it has engaged in.


"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
Lenny Bruce

"The cleverest of all, in my opinion, is the man who calls himself a fool at least once a month."
Dostoevsky



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