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I am sitting here watching Chris Hayes (MSNBC) doing a report on the California drought. And it occurred to me that there was a drought back in the 30's ... the Dust Bowl. At that time, various relatives of my ancestors fled to California ... like in the Grapes of Wrath. So many people from Oklahoma fled, that some people in California still say, "I can't go out looking like an Okie." (I've heard them.)

So, if the California drought continues, might there be an eastward migration of California farmers? Might they flee their farms, flee their homes, as jobs dry up, and head to Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Missouri, Iowa, etc. to make a new start?

I learned to be a water miser when I lived in California thirty some years ago. Californians were already aware, concerned, and proactive. Yay, Californians, I love you.

And I hate to think of such a devastating thing happening to California. But, I (definitely selfishly) would love to have Californians inundate the middle states. I would love to have lots of Californians living in my neighborhood, voting in local elections, "going to the Walmart's" not looking like Okies.

The midwest could get a lot bluer.

Last edited by Spag-hetti; 07/21/15 12:57 AM.

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Lots of blogger righties revel in California's water woes in a "God is punishing the Libs" sort of way (there's usually a conception that everyone in blue states is liberal and everyone in red states is conservative). The usual blame is not on drought (which could be connected to climate change, and that is not an allowed thought) but is reserved for environmentalists.

Anyway, Californians leaving because of a water shortage may be blue or red, but it's for certain that the culture of California is certainly more liberal than that of, say, Oklahoma. So there will be a culture clash, and probably a resentment of anyone who is from California, in the states where those folks might go.


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Texas and Oklahoma were inundated with flooding just this past winter and Spring. And with drought the previous 2-3 years before that(remember, Texas had over 100 consecutive days of 100 degree temps and no rain a couple of years ago). The Northeast is also suffering from horrific and prolonged winters of snowstorms/ice storms/nor'easters, and there has been drought in the Pacific Northwest. Plus, the severity of hurricanes and tornadoes is increasing, along with frequency. There have also been catastrophic weather and earthquake events in other parts of the world. All which is caused more by climate change. Of course, it could be acts of God to let us know that she is not happy with how we are treating the environment...just sayin'. wink


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Originally Posted By: Spag-hetti

And I hate to think of such a devastating thing happening to California. But, I (definitely selfishly) would love to have Californians inundate the middle states. I would love to have lots of Californians living in my neighborhood, voting in local elections, "going to the Walmart's" not looking like Okies.

The midwest could get a lot bluer.


It wasn't a drought that made me do the Reverse Dust Bowl Migration back in 1998. It was the after effects of the 1994 Northridge Quake and the crooked dealings of the California Insurance Commissioner, who was a Republican, by the way.

I was completely wiped out and thanks to Chuck Quackenbush's sweetheart deal with big insurance, Allstate was able to sneak out on covering most people like me thanks to a loophole, so I got two cents on the dollar on a 350 thousand dollar loss.

I've done the migration to the red states and although I miss all the wonderful people I made friends with down there in Texas and Oklahoma, I will never ever live there again.

I fled BACK to California, and I know what to expect.
I expect that the meteorologist's predictions for an El Nino will come true in October, because they have been right before.

And this El Nino they claim is coming in October will break the drought. Yes, there will widespread flooding. California will get five years worth of water in six week's time. It's feast or famine but believe it or not, despite the fact that the droughts are worse now thanks to climate change, this IS the normal baseline for the region. It's just exaggerated now, that's all and the damage is worse.

Not only that but I am confident that California will leverage technology to mitigate the water shortage. Desalination is becoming a lot like solar power. Not only are we now scaling up large scale desal plants along the coast in earnest, there are also low tech small scale solutions to desalinate seawater and brackish water for individual use which have been around for centuries.

The only thing that has ever held back our special brand of West Coast ingenuity is conservative greed and selfishness, and the fearmongering they seem to be addicted to.


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Originally Posted By: logtroll
So there will be a culture clash, and probably a resentment of anyone who is from California, in the states where those folks might go.


There was for us, and it got really old, really fast.
I am not used to being made to feel unwelcome in a place I live in, especially if I have been there for a decade, and I got fed up with it.
It wasn't an occasional thing, it was a constant theme in the background. Not a whisper, a MANTRA.

There are a lot of wonderful people in Texas and Oklahoma, but they are in the minority if you're "a Yankee", which is ANYONE who wasn't born there - - - except George Bush.
He got a pass.


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Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Not only that but I am confident that California will leverage technology to mitigate the water shortage. Desalination is becoming a lot like solar power. Not only are we now scaling up large scale desal plants along the coast in earnest, there are also low tech small scale solutions to desalinate seawater and brackish water for individual use which have been around for centuries.

The only thing that has ever held back our special brand of West Coast ingenuity is conservative greed and selfishness, and the fearmongering they seem to be addicted to.


And if a desal plant leaks, it doesn't pollute. ThumbsUp


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The drought really only applies to the farmers in the central valley, who got water for almost nothing. (And they are probably conservatives, too!) All of us in Southern California cities are already paying more to get delta water down here than it would cost to desalinate it locally!

Our water districts just need to build the desal plants and get unhooked from the state water project.

So the only people who might reverse-grape it back to the midwest are already Red Staters.

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A friend of mine elsewhere on social media made me think tonight.

I mentioned the big ass El Nino due to roar up the coast this fall and how there's a 90% chance it's coming for sure.


Jeffery Haas
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The right wing blogosphere seems to take particular joy in California's water crisis. The holy rollers think God is punishing lefties and liberals and the conservatives think that California's loss will be their gain.
They don't understand California's feast or famine weather cycles any more than Californians seem to understand Florida's cavalier approach to devastating hurricanes.
The forecasters acknowledge that there's no guarantee on an El Nino hitting California this fall, but the odds are now at 90 percent.
And it is predicted to be the strongest one in fifty years, which means it will break the drought.


I alluded to the fact that it's going to be enough to break the drought, and he replied:

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This is a lot of water. I wonder what our plans are, to capture that water? It's still warm, so the Sierras might not form the winter snowpack we usually depend upon. Drought has silted other reservoirs more than we think. The Sacramento Delta has not been well maintained for twenty years, so it won't hold the water we expect. I suspect that a lot of that water will just run off back into the Pacific ocean.


That pulled me right out of my reverie. tonbricks


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Quote:
Florida's cavalier approach to devastating hurricanes.


That one's pretty simple. They just don't happen often enough to be genuinely concerned. It's been ten years since a hurricane hit Florida.(Thank you Global Climate Change) Even when they do, most are non-events. They don't happen suddenly, we see them coming weeks in advance. They can be pretty nasty if you live on the coast and suffer a direct hit, otherwise it's just a windy rainy day. Often what looks absolutely awful to the rest of the nation on radar really isn't. News crews always get out to the beaches and film the surf and the stoplights swinging in the wind along with the street signs whipping back and forth. Palm trees flapping around make good video too, but when it comes right down to it "devastating" hurricanes are pretty rare.


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Originally Posted By: logtroll
Anyway, Californians leaving because of a water shortage...

That is one reason why I sold my home and moved - not the sole reason, but definitely a factor - and I wanted to get out before it affected property values.


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Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
I expect that the meteorologist's predictions for an El Nino will come true in October, because they have been right before.

The "problem" with El Ninos is the warm rain it brings. You need snowpack more than you need rain and there isn't much snowpack with El Ninos - only rain.


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Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
I expect that the meteorologist's predictions for an El Nino will come true in October, because they have been right before.

The "problem" with El Ninos is the warm rain it brings. You need snowpack more than you need rain and there isn't much snowpack with El Ninos - only rain.


Yes, what we need is cold rain
But filling up therm reservoirs could be a start


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Quote:
I wanted to get out before it affected property values.


I suspect you overreacted: In LA and San Diego we already pay more for water transportation than we would pay to run municipal desalination plants. We really can make just as much fresh water as we want, and the water will be cheaper than the rates we are paying now. So I doubt a "temporary water shortage because we are too stupid to build desal plants" will harm real estate prices. They are still building homes, so that tells us something. I bet the politicians are just waiting for developers to pay for the desal plants, like they do with everything else.

I predict there will be disparity: Water districts with contracts to buy desal water will have plenty of water. Districts that don't will have extreme rationing.

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If we get the El Nino, the drought will be averted-until the next one. I agree that we need to figure out a way to capture that water, instead of letting most of it run off into the Pacific Ocean. We've got until October to figure something out.


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Quote:
We've got until October to figure something out.


Well, that's not going to happen! It takes years to build dams, etc. and El Ninio events are barely worth building dams that are going to stand empty about 9 years out of 10.

We need to build the desalination plants. They are WAY WAY cheaper than building dams and aqueducts. They are tiny: You can't even see the Carlsbad plant and we drive by it on I5 every day.

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It's also important to remember that there are several other ways to desalinate water and recover water from the atmosphere. In addition to the method being used in Carlsbad and Santa Barbara, there are solar thermal, solar electric, passive condenser, passive evaporative and air well methods for reclaiming water, all of which can be deployed on several different scale models for either mass public or single private installs.

Some are slow and low output, some do a little better but taken as a whole all of them if deployed together can make a difference.

People in SoCal simply need to remember that we live in a very arid desert and they need to approach water that way.


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Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Well, that's not going to happen! It takes years to build dams, etc. and El Ninio events are barely worth building dams that are going to stand empty about 9 years out of 10.

The proper way to hold back water is by restoring the landscape's natural ability to be a sponge, a feature that has been severely compromised by human development and abuse, and not by more plugging of Nature's arteries.

Use reduction, reuse, and cleaning are proper methods of increasing water supply. Desal is a good technology if the salts are dealt with responsibly, preferably by using them productively for other things.


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My water softener uses 120 pounds of salt per month. It's cheap but I expect the biggest part of the cost is shipping it from wherever it came from to a store near me.
We have plenty of water here and will likely have too much after El Nino winds down, but the coastal regions of Florida have horrible water and a lot of salt water intrusion. We already have one desal plant that supplies 25 million gallons a day to the Tampa Bay area but may be looking at more before long too, particularly since rising sea levels are gonna cause even more salt water intrusion.
Dams and aqueducts don't work all that well here since there is so little in the way of elevation changes.


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Quote:
People in SoCal simply need to remember that we live in a very arid desert and they need to approach water that way.


Or they could just pay the desal plant about $67/month for their average amount of household water. That is based on the actual cost per acre-foot the Carslbad plant is charging the local water districts for their 50,000,000 gallons per day. And keep in mind that Poseidon Water is planning on making a profit on those sales.

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Originally Posted By: Greger
Dams and aqueducts don't work all that well here since there is so little in the way of elevation changes.
I guess you can't dammit all to Hell?


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Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all


Or they could just pay the desal plant about $67/month for their average amount of household water. That is based on the actual cost per acre-foot the Carslbad plant is charging the local water districts for their 50,000,000 gallons per day. And keep in mind that Poseidon Water is planning on making a profit on those sales.


Our water bill in North TX was about 67 a month so for me, that sounds very reasonable.


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Quote:
that sounds very reasonable


My point exactly. Desalinating IS more expensive than taking water out of the river that flows by your town. But if you don't have a natural river or lake nearby (like all of coastal Southern California) it costs about the same to transport the water hundreds of miles as it does to desalinate it locally.

This is why all schemes involving transporting water even greater distances are just plain stupid: Even if the water is free, the transportation cost kills the deal.

On the other hand, water cost can never rise much above what it is now in Southern California because the cost hits an upper limit that is the desalination cost. The Sierra snow pack and the Colorado River could dry up completely and we could just desalinate 100% of our water for about the same cost. Instead of coastal Southern California drying to a parched desert, it will bloom. Can't say the same for western states far from the ocean.

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Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
We've got until October to figure something out.


Well, that's not going to happen! It takes years to build dams, etc. and El Ninio events are barely worth building dams that are going to stand empty about 9 years out of 10.

We need to build the desalination plants. They are WAY WAY cheaper than building dams and aqueducts. They are tiny: You can't even see the Carlsbad plant and we drive by it on I5 every day.


I have been for desalinization plants for years, but I see that our state government isn't on board with that, or even municipal/county governments. They don't seem to want to spend the money. Of course now, they are finding out what that kind of short-sightedness is bring them. Penny-wise and pound-foolish. Even though the desal plants are more quickly built and cheaper, It still won't capture the extra water brought from the ElNino.


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Originally Posted by pondering_it_all
California needs to actually do something about their water supply problem. They are now talking about cutting off Central Valley farmer's water supply. This is some of the most productive agricultural land in the US. The state needs to build a lot of desalination plants all along the coast. The Carlsbad plant has several years of experience of producing 50 million gallons of pure fresh water per day. My water district buys part of their output, and note that the California Water Authority has no plans to cut water for San Diego.

Now there certainly is some stupid water use in Central Valley agriculture raising crops that require a lot of water, like the almonds that are mostly exported to China. But I think the growers could actually change their prices enough to cover their water costs of a changed model that does not depend on Sierra snowpack. We have thousands of square miles of desert East of the Sierras and Southern mountain ranges, that have extremely abundant sunshine. PV panels are the cheapest way of generating electricity now, often as low as 2 cents per KWHr. We could build those solar farms, the transmission lines needed to carry the power to the coast, and the desalination plants to make the fresh water. This would give us a totally-predictable water supply.

Instead of two desalination plants, we should have 30. Pumping the water to the Central Valley would be pretty cheap, as most of the Central Valley has low elevations. Done right, we could even run the canals now carrying water South backwards. Sending it that way would actually be downhill!

I am intentionally going to necro this thread because it deserves the respect it originally generated, and clearly we're still talking about the exact same subject six years later, almost to the day.
In honor of Scoutgal...


I know that high speed rail sounds like a great idea but apparently we've reached a Hell of an impasse on that, and I daresay we need the water more than we need the fancy high speed trains right now. There's been talk of putting in some "autobahn" type high speed lanes on I-5 to make the trip to NorCal a bit faster.
That may help some...certainly a lot cheaper than our high speed rail debacle.

So let's utilize some of that high speed rail money and put it into desal...SOLAR powered desal. Let's let California lead the way again in high tech solutions to immediate problems.
The brine? Geezus man, it's not nuclear waste, I'm sure that brine can be put to use for something...it's mostly salt fer chrissakes.

Are we actually saying that it is impossible to figure out how to dry out the brine to the point where we just have a s**t ton of SALT?
And are we saying that a s**t ton of SALT is such an overwhelming threat that we simply can't do anything about it?


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California in its past, pre-statehood has had droughts lasting 200 and 300 years. California since becoming a state has been in a wet period. I think this is the article I read about the 200 year plus droughts in California ancient past. It wants me to subscribe or pay for it since I visited their site more than 3 times.

California drought: Past dry periods have lasted more than 200 years, scientists say

https://www.mercurynews.com/2014/01...sted-more-than-200-years-scientists-say/

Let me know if this isn't the article and I'll try to find it. The NYT has a similar article, but there again, it wants me to pay and subscribe which I won't do.

Anyway, California may be returning to its more normal past.

Here's one from the NYT.

In California, a Wet Era May Be Ending

https://readerrant.capitolhillblue.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=334852#Post334852


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Originally Posted by perotista
California in its past, pre-statehood has had droughts lasting 200 and 300 years. California since becoming a state has been in a wet period. I think this is the article I read about the 200 year plus droughts in California ancient past. It wants me to subscribe or pay for it since I visited their site more than 3 times.

California drought: Past dry periods have lasted more than 200 years, scientists say

https://www.mercurynews.com/2014/01...sted-more-than-200-years-scientists-say/

Let me know if this isn't the article and I'll try to find it. The NYT has a similar article, but there again, it wants me to pay and subscribe which I won't do.

Anyway, California may be returning to its more normal past.

Here's one from the NYT.

In California, a Wet Era May Be Ending

https://readerrant.capitolhillblue.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=334852#Post334852

All the more reason why this "nation" of forty million souls, with the fifth largest economy on the planet, must leverage the technology and make solar powered ocean water desalination mainstream and ubiquitous throughout the state.

We cannot afford a future where most of the state goes back to looking like the desert scene in Thelma & Louise.


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I'm all for that. That's where California should put it resources. California, or the people moving and living there have been lucky to do so during a wet period which it seems is about to move back into a natural dry period which has the possibility of lasting 100's of years as it has in the past.

The problem isn't just in California, it's the whole southwest returning to its more weather norms of the past.


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The problem isn't just in California, it's the whole southwest returning to its more weather norms of the past.

It's not just the southwest, and I don't think these are "norms" we're returning to.


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According to the scientific research, 200-300 years droughts in the west happened and more than once. I suppose you're right, they weren't the norm, but neither is the wet period for the last couple of hundred years either. There must be a happy medium there somewhere.

Folks out there are lucky as all get out for the Hoover Damn and Lake Mead. Lake Mead is in trouble.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/17/us/lake-mead-drought-water-shortage-climate/index.html

Without Hoover and Mead, there's no way the southwest and California could support naturally the amount of people they have now. The lake has dropped 143 feet, if it drops another 175 feet, no more water flowing through the dam, no more water flowing to those 5 states and to Las Vegas, no more electricity from Hoover Dam. Which by the way, Hoover Dam has already been forced to cut back on the electricity produced.

Interesting.


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The Colorado river should be serving cities and agricultural areas near it. The Sierras and desal should be serving the rest of California. We have built all this infrastructure to move Colorado River water way beyond the area it can serve. That infrastructure needs a huge amount of electrical energy (1/5th of the electricity produced in the state!) and a lot of maintenance. It would make a lot more sense to just move electricity instead of water. Almost all the population in California lives in the coastal cities, Desal plants can connect to existing water distribution networks.

In the long run, warming should put more water into the atmosphere, But it will also change precipitation and wind patterns in unpredictable ways. Farmers in North San Diego are trying to leave the San Diego Water Authority so they can join Riverside County's Water Authority, that has lower rates. San Diego has slightly higher rates, but it also has greater stability. These guys are avocado growers who need a minimum amount of water to produce, and they need it all the time. If they get cut off by the water district for two weeks, their production goes to zero for at least the next year. Maybe two years. I predict the end of avocado production in Fallbrook if they succeed, because at some point their new water district will shut down their water. The rest of North County will still have 50 million gallons per day of desal water being made by the Carlsbad plant.


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Something like 80% of the water sucked out of the Colorado River watershed goes to agriculture, and a lot of that is for hayfields.

If soil carbon levels were brought back to healthy levels, it has been estimated that agricultural irrigation water use could be reduced by 50%. 50% of 80% is 40%. If humans weren't butt stupid we could use excess biomass (and there is a humongous lot of it) to use in making cheap energy and biochar, and use the biochar in ag soils, which would increase the Colorado Basin water supply by a whopping 40% while reducing catastrophic wildfires, increasing soil productivity, and drawing down incredible amounts of CO2 from the atmosphere.

The only problem is that humans are butt stupid and there are waay too many of us.


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Originally Posted by pondering_it_all
The Colorado river should be serving cities and agricultural areas near it. The Sierras and desal should be serving the rest of California. We have built all this infrastructure to move Colorado River water way beyond the area it can serve. That infrastructure needs a huge amount of electrical energy (1/5th of the electricity produced in the state!) and a lot of maintenance. It would make a lot more sense to just move electricity instead of water. Almost all the population in California lives in the coastal cities, Desal plants can connect to existing water distribution networks.

In the long run, warming should put more water into the atmosphere, But it will also change precipitation and wind patterns in unpredictable ways. Farmers in North San Diego are trying to leave the San Diego Water Authority so they can join Riverside County's Water Authority, that has lower rates. San Diego has slightly higher rates, but it also has greater stability. These guys are avocado growers who need a minimum amount of water to produce, and they need it all the time. If they get cut off by the water district for two weeks, their production goes to zero for at least the next year. Maybe two years. I predict the end of avocado production in Fallbrook if they succeed, because at some point their new water district will shut down their water. The rest of North County will still have 50 million gallons per day of desal water being made by the Carlsbad plant.
I don't know a thing about avocados. But your first part makes too much sense for it to be enacted.


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Desalinization is certainly an interesting coping strategy, but it does nothing to solve the root problem.


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It certainly would help the cities on the coast of California. Perhaps shrinking the need for water from the Colorado or Lake Meade. You have two problems with Lake Meade, the evaporation problem and people using more water from Meade than the Colorado River can replace. You also have the electricity output from Hoover Dam having been cut by a fourth as of now, with future electricity cuts very possible in the future as the water level drops. Another 175 foot drop, no more electricity from Hoover, no more water flowing through the dam for down stream use. The article stated Meade is at 36% capacity.That the two of the three intakes that supplies water to Las Vegas is now above the water line. The third is at the bottom of the lake.

The area in its ancient past has suffered through 200 and 300 years droughts. A drought is what is thought that put an end to the Anasazi civilization. My question is, what is being done now? Everyone knows the problem, is it being addressed or just being put on hold?


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How would you define the root problem?

I think the superficial answer is, "Not enough water." But that's actually a symptom, and is not foundational.

"You can't solve a problem until you actually understand what the problem is."

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How would you define the root problem?

Too many people using water unwisely. This isn't a new thing, Cali has had an ongoing problem for a long time, they made the desert bloom, then they forced it to produce.

Much like here in Floriduh it's a man-made problem. And just like here in Floriduh there is no solution cheap enough to solve the problem so no solution will be forthcoming.


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Originally Posted by logtroll
How would you define the root problem?

I think the superficial answer is, "Not enough water." But that's actually a symptom, and is not foundational.

"You can't solve a problem until you actually understand what the problem is."
I would say the problem is too many people living where the natural environment isn't able to support them. Man has made many changes in an attempt to overcome the natural environment which has been mostly successful to a point. But mother nature will overcome man's attempt at some point, she will eventually win out.

I always thought man needs to live with the natural environment he is thrust in, live along side it, live like nature and man are one. Man has always tried to tame nature to suit man's needs. It usually works for awhile, but sooner or later comes a day of reckoning.


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I suppose we could stop subverting nature with man-made stuff like clothes and houses. We could all move to the tropics and walk around naked, hunting and gathering.


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In my younger days, I could deal with everyone walking around naked. But you know that wasn't what I meant. Now if your reply means we need to exploit our natural environment to the hilt while trying to control mother nation, so be it.

We can live with mother nature or try to exploit the heck out of her, along with placing way too many people into environments that can't support them.


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I suppose we could stop subverting nature with man-made stuff like clothes and houses. We could all move to the tropics and walk around naked, hunting and gathering.

That scenario is entirely possible as our infrastructure crumbles, crops fail and weather changes. The piddling little pandemic we are dealing with will be followed by more, just as the hurricanes, droughts, floods and fires are always followed by more and worse.

I just saw that one of California's de-sal plants is being threatened by the collapse of the land it is built on due to sea level rise...

Quote
“The combination of erosion and sea level rise is what’s going to do in much of the San Diego County coast. It makes sense, considering you have a lot of high-value property sitting up on those cliffs.”

Ultimately, infrastructure, including houses, roads and rail lines, entire city blocks, and possibly even a desalination plant and a decommissioned nuclear-power plant, will have to be moved. Homeowners in the region have balked at the term managed retreat, but regardless of what it’s called, some kind of community relocation will have to happen
From The Atlantic

It's a lot more than weather reverting to previous norms. It's a whole new deal. And it will be unrelenting. I've heard that it's actually God's Wrath being rained down upon us because of the Gay Agenda.

It's pretty nice down here in the (sub)tropics. It's been a coolish summer with lots of rain.

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Originally Posted by Greger
Too many people using water unwisely.

To wit:

Growing almonds
Watering lawns to the point where they look like Kentucky
Failing to recognize the role of biomass as Loggy pointed out.

That's just three but they might be the top three.


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In a word…

[Linked Image from invoice911.ca]


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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
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Originally Posted by logtroll
In a word…

[Linked Image from invoice911.ca]

I always wondered what happened to that baby.
Did he grow up with a sense of humor?
Did anyone let him know he's a famous meme?
Is he capable of making adorable funny faces now?

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You caught me.


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A THOUGHT FOR TODAY:
I have noticed that when chickens quit quarreling over their food they often find that there is enough for all of them. I wonder if it might not be the same with the human race. -Don Marquis, humorist and poet (29 Jul 1878-1937)


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It is in the chicken's nature to quarrel over food, to establish a clear class system that determines which ones eat first and most. It is always the least hungry who eat first and most.

They honestly don't give a f*ck if the classes below them eat or not, as long as they get their fill.


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The desal plant would be easy to move, the decommissioned nuclear plant much harder. Funny thing about San Diego, though: It's very hilly with lots of the city up on mesas. Sea level could rise 30 feet and it would not flood much of the city. Along the coast, there are a lot of cliffs with the houses starting 50-400 feet above the beach. La Jolla Shores and Mission Valley would flood, but La Jolla proper, North Pacific Beach, Clairmont, Linda Vista, Balboa Park, etc. would all be fine. The areas that would be lost would mostly be places where people pay premiums to be close to the beach.

If you look at elevations in the central valley, Sacrament would be beach front property, Stockton would be gone. but by the time you got to Modesto, it would be fine.

I love Don Marquis. Archy and Mehitabel was one of the first adult books I ever read.


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I didn't mean to imply that sea-level rise would inundate the state. Just that it's part and parcel to every other problem...droughts, fires, floods, mudslides...

Cali is a wealthy state though...surely the funding to fix it all should be available...? It's even a Democrat controlled state so they can raise taxes at will to pay for everything...they can regulate industry and agriculture...!

Or not.

The entire world is in the same fix. Capitalists run everything and there's no profit in mitigation.


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Originally Posted by logtroll
Desalinization is certainly an interesting coping strategy, but it does nothing to solve the root problem.

We have people like Logtroll to help with the root issues but we kinda need both coping solutions AND root approaches.


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The root problem is we keep dumping more CO2 into the atmosphere. Any biologist can tell you about cultures that choke on their own waste products. But you can't solve that on a state or even country basis. It takes everybody, and humanity has way too many "I've got mine, so screw you" types.

Adequate fresh water supply for California? Easily solved on a water district, county, or state level. You may have noticed that California has a long coastline, and most of the population lives near the coast. Most of the rest of the population lives in the Central Valley along Highway 99. So you build desal plants along the coast, and put one in Suisun Bay to serve the Central Valley. You've just covered almost everybody in the state. Small towns further inland have reasonable water resources. Hardly anybody lives in Death Valley, and there's plenty of Eastern Sierra water for them if LA stops depending on it.

It would actually take a lot of pressure off Nevada, Arizona, and California's Southeastern farmers near El Centro, if California stopped shipping Colorado River water to Southern California. California has priority because of very old agreements, but that ends up screwing over Mexican farmers since there is very little river by the time it gets to them. Of course, they live near the Gulf of California, so as long as we are cranking out desal plants at commodity prices maybe we build a few for them.


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Originally Posted by Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted by Greger
Too many people using water unwisely.

To wit:

Growing almonds
Watering lawns to the point where they look like Kentucky
Failing to recognize the role of biomass as Loggy pointed out.

That's just three but they might be the top three.

Absolutely! The best solutions, IMHO, have to be on the front end. Shut down the swimming pools, the golf courses, the fountains. Stop growing any crop that can’t be grown with a measurable amount of water - and if that means we go back to eating produce when it’s in season rather than watering it year round, that’s fine.

Regarding desalinization - there was a lot of talk about building a desal plant on the Colorado where I lived 20 years ago. I moved so I’m not sure what happened, but it got a lot of pushback back then. I hope it’s financially more feasible now.

One other note: for a long time, we’ve been using so much of the Colorado River water that we’ve been unable to pay our water debt to Mexico. We also need to be aware of impact on the Grand Canyon - failing to do that is how we lost Glen Canyon.

Oldie but a goodie: Marc Reisner’s ”Cadillac Desert:The American west and its Disappearing Water.”


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Originally Posted by Mellowicious
Originally Posted by Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted by Greger
Too many people using water unwisely.

To wit:

Growing almonds
Watering lawns to the point where they look like Kentucky
Failing to recognize the role of biomass as Loggy pointed out.

That's just three but they might be the top three.

Absolutely! The best solutions, IMHO, have to be on the front end. Shut down the swimming pools, the golf courses, the fountains. Stop growing any crop that can’t be grown with a measurable amount of water - and if that means we go back to eating produce when it’s in season rather than watering it year round, that’s fine.

Regarding desalinization - there was a lot of talk about building a desal plant on the Colorado where I lived 20 years ago. I moved so I’m not sure what happened, but it got a lot of pushback back then. I hope it’s financially more feasible now.

One other note: for a long time, we’ve been using so much of the Colorado River water that we’ve been unable to pay our water debt to Mexico. We also need to be aware of impact on the Grand Canyon - failing to do that is how we lost Glen Canyon.

Oldie but a goodie: Marc Reisner’s ”Cadillac Desert:The American west and its Disappearing Water.”

It drives me batty to see people dutifully watering the crap out of their lawns in Southern California while we literally turn into the Dust Bowl.
Agree wholeheartedly...if you want the lawn to look like Kentucky by cracky please MOVE TO Kentucky.


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Turn of the water to the golf courses first. We have an unbelievable number of them in Southern California. I think golf should be done in places that are self-watering, like the old courses in Scotland. We even have Municipal Courses, where the taxpayers subsidize the watering! Then stop subsidizing agriculture with artificially low water rates. If farmers, pool owners, etc, can afford to pay the same water rates as everybody else, let them. Poor people will not have pools, or vast green lawns, so their rates will be low. Almonds and rice will be a bit more expensive and tend to be imported from places that have more water. Maybe that will move North, as climates shift. Trying to keep everything like it was before climate change is just too unsustainable.


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A lot of the produce grown in California depends in some way on imported waters, and the aquifers aren’t refilling fast enough if at all. It’s not just almonds and rice. 1/4 of the food in this country comes from the Central Valley, and it’s almost 20% of the irrigated land in the country. Things are going to change whether we prepare for it or not.

And shut off that XxxxxFountain in Las Vegas - complete waste presented as a Good Thing.

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Originally Posted by pondering_it_all
Turn of the water to the golf courses first. We have an unbelievable number of them in Southern California. I think golf should be done in places that are self-watering, like the old courses in Scotland. We even have Municipal Courses, where the taxpayers subsidize the watering! Then stop subsidizing agriculture with artificially low water rates. If farmers, pool owners, etc, can afford to pay the same water rates as everybody else, let them. Poor people will not have pools, or vast green lawns, so their rates will be low. Almonds and rice will be a bit more expensive and tend to be imported from places that have more water. Maybe that will move North, as climates shift. Trying to keep everything like it was before climate change is just too unsustainable.

Ever see that Howard Hughes movie "The Aviator?"
The scene with Howard and Katherine Hepburn is historically accurate.
They used to just dye the brown grass "green" back in the Twenties and Thirties.

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There wasn't enough water until Colonel Mulholland figured out how to bring it to "Los ANGG-ell-ees"


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The movie “Chinatown” has some truth to it as well.


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Originally Posted by Mellowicious
The movie “Chinatown” has some truth to it as well.

Absolutely it does.
Chinatown was based largely on accounts of Mulholland and the Water Wars in L.A. County, "The Two Jakes" was based on similar scandals in the oil and gas industry and there was SUPPOSED to be a third and final installment, a sequel that dealt with how L.A. lost its urban commuter rail system, but that project got canned and instead it found new life in "Who Framed Roger Rabbit".


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Interesting. I’m not sure how agave for farming will be able to surpass agave for the liquor industry but let’s hope. And let’s hope, if the project is successful, agave doesn’t get turned into a monoculture itself. Nice video; thanks.


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Here is an interesting page about water supply and use in California:

Water is life. It's also a battle.

California imports zero water for Central Valley agriculture. That all comes from the Sierras. The Colorado River Aqueduct swings South, and comes into San Bernardino South of the mountains. It ends at the Metropolitan Water District, which supplies water for the greater LA and San Diego areas. LA also gets a lot of it's water from the Eastern Sierra. That's the system Mullholland built. MWD also gets some water pumped South from the Sacramento River Delta. So getting less water from the Colorado River will not directly affect Central Valley agriculture, unless MWD gets more of "their" water pumped South. (That's actually more expensive than desalination!)

The big problem for Central Valley ag is low rain and snowpack in the Sierras. We do "import" a little bit of water in far Northern California, but that's just the natural flow of the Klamath River. Actually, you could even say we don't "import" Colorado River water, since the Western shore is in California for about 195 miles. Every drop of water Southern California desalinates, cuts the amount we need to take from the Colorado River. That page I quoted lists the cost of desalination versus transportation (and everything else). They say desalination costs 40% more than water transportation, but desalination probably includes the profit the desalination company makes, and water transportation is heavily subsidized by cheap electricity rates. When I compared the number of MWhrs of electricity used for transporting water from the Colorado River per acre foot, to the amount the desal plant uses per acre foot, they were about the same.


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Pondering, your facts are impressive (not to mention accurate.) Imported or exported (I couldn’t think of a better word, sorry,) water from the mountains or the aquifer for crops that can’t grow without (what I’ll call water assistance) is water not available to sustain the human population. Where it comes from, and where it goes are both major factors.

Ag is a big water user, possibly the biggest. And, unlike most uses of the phrase, water use in California (as elsewhere) is a zero-sum game. In order to have winners, there have to be losers.

Thanks very much for your post.


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Originally Posted by Mellowicious\
And let’s hope, if the project is successful, agave doesn’t get turned into a monoculture itself..
I posted that video not because it is a promising project, but because it demonstrates a different way of thinking about reality. Especially the reality of our culture, which, as described in another topic about having too much, leaves us dissatisfied and frustrated. It also finds us squabbling about solutions that are focused on the unconscious mentality of more rather than figuring out rational approaches to living within the means of the planet.

It blows me away that those people are growing abundance in an arid climate that we think of as basically a desert wasteland where it doesn't rain 8 months out of the year, without sucking up any aquifers or rivers for irrigation. And they are drawing down atmospheric CO2 and they have meat in their diets and folks are getting some exercise and satisfaction from their lives... (one more, - and they get as much tequila as they can drink)!

Is their culture primitive, or advanced? (Note that they aren't living in caves...)

wink


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Are these people leaders?

Your assignment, class, is to compare and contrast the UN Summit to the agave project.


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Aww, logtroll - do you know how much work that’s gonna be?.


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Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn...

(To be quite honest, I never considered snark and satire to be work.)


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That’s why I gave you a satiric answer. I’m too lazytorea$ the entire article!


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I was hoping for some biting satire about the UN summit...

(I didn't read the whole thing, either)


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Thank you - that makes me feel better.


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Thanks, Mellowicious. I'm a retired San Diego County avocado grower, so I'm pretty well entangled in California water policy! We had about 100 producing trees when we bought the place. After mandatory water cuts we are now down to two good trees and a few stunted ones. Sent over 1000 pounds to the packing house the second year, once most of the trees had recovered from the previous owner shutting off the watering.


We're flying electric helicopters on Mars yet you can't turn on your clothes dryer in Texas. That's because scientists are in charge of Mars, and Republicans are in charge of Texas.
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Watched this video last night - amazing!


Maybe they should have passed out magic mushrooms at the UN Summit?


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Originally Posted by Greger
It is in the chicken's nature to quarrel over food, to establish a clear class system that determines whiThey honestly don't give a f*ck if the classes below them eat or not, as long as they get their fill.
Sounds like a lot of greedy, grubby, stingy, selfish, cheap and chintzy Republican politicians that I know.

smile

My evidence? The 2017 tax bill where the 1% got 87% of the benefit and the rest of us 331M slobs had to split the other 13%. crazy


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That one has been on my list - wi5h your recommendation, I’ll move it up. Thanks. (Log’s mushroom movie recommend- I flubbed the quote)

Last edited by Mellowicious; 08/21/21 02:05 PM.

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I went to High School with Louie, the videographer. Interesting guy even them. I recommend his other films. Very interesting and very beautiful.

Last edited by pondering_it_all; 08/22/21 12:12 AM.

We're flying electric helicopters on Mars yet you can't turn on your clothes dryer in Texas. That's because scientists are in charge of Mars, and Republicans are in charge of Texas.
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THE WELL FIXER’S WARNING

Quote
...It occurred to him that these same farmers had endured at least five droughts since the mid-1970s and that drought, like the sun, was an eternal condition of California. But he also understood that their ability to shrug off nature—no one forgot the last drought faster than the farmer, Steinbeck wrote—was part of their genius. Their collective amnesia had allowed them to forge the most industrialized farm belt in the world. Whenever a new drought set down, they believed it was a force that could be conquered. build more dams, their signs along Highway 99 read, even though the dams on the San Joaquin River already numbered half a dozen. The well fixer understood their hidebound ways. He understood their stubbornness, and maybe even their delusion. Here at continent’s edge, nothing westward but the sea, we were all deluded.

From The Atlantic


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Delusion… what would humans do without it?

We had our first Civilian Climate Corps community conversation yesterday, which is not really what I want to talk about, at least not directly. My aim for initiating a local CCC project is to center it on an area known as Fort Bayard, a collection of old buildings and associated well-used grounds, surrounded by a watershed of about 10,000 acres that served as a primary resource for animal grazing and firewood for the 1866 military installation. The reason for putting a fort there was to "protect" the invading forces of miners and cattlemen from the marauding Apache savages. If you do an internet search for Fort Bayard you will find that the history of the area begins in 1866 and there is no information on what it was like before that. It is notable that the soldiers deployed to the fort to fight (eradicate) the Indians were Negro "Buffalo Soldiers" left over from the Civil War. After some time the pesky Apaches were neutralized and Fort Bayard proper changed use from a military installation to a national cemetery and an army tuberculosis sanatarium. In the early 1900's the State of New Mexico mostly took over operations as a hospital and long term nursing care facility.

In the 1930's the Civilian Conservation Corps did a lot of work to mitigate erosion in the watershed (the result of overuse and abuse by the army), primarily by installing stone checkdams in the ever deepening arroyos. While the CCC work was reasonably effective in the short term catching sediment and slowing rainfall runoff, it did little to restore the heavily damaged ecosystem. Sometime later, the greater Fort Bayard military reservation was designated as a wildlife refuge (damed little wildlife there anymore) managed by the US Forest Service. Around 2009, the lingering, but run down hospital was closed and a new hospital built a half mile away. Recently, part of the old fort/medical center campus was leased to the nearby Village of Santa Clara, who intends to renovate some of it as a historical tourist attraction.

Ironically (delusionally?), the history presented to the tourons will be a glorification of the invasion of the white culture into the homeland of the Chiricahua Apache, taking over one of the prime campsites for the nomadic tribe, murdering the residents, and ruining the healthy local ecosystem, all for the purpose of supporting mindless greed attended by exploitation and abuse.

Mindless greed attended by exploitation and abuse is the root cause of the climate crisis.

The idea to use Fort Bayard as a base for launching a new CCC, building on the history of the old Civilian Conservation Corps and the current 51 year old Youth Conservation Corps, and restoring the land while telling the true history as part of educating people about what we have done to the Earth, and positive actions we can take to change our culture from one of destruction to restoration, is something to have hope and inspiration around.

Am I optimistic? Yes. Am I pessimistic? Yes. Am I delusional? Probably. But in the mortal words of Tony Soprano,

[Linked Image from c.tenor.com]


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
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