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jgw Offline OP
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I think this is your response to the draft (not sure). Anyway, if it is you just made another reason FOR the draft. The fact that some rich (Trump amongst them) were able to dodge the draft is just an example of the lack of responsibility and incompetence of gov to enforce its own laws and this is fixable.

I can remember, during Korea and Vietnam, when folks got caught dodging - they got severely hammered. The best way to dodge was to flee to Canada who seemed happy for the influx of mainly well educated Americans (many of who stayed in Canada after the war(s))

This was actually yet another boost to Canada. Another would be their auto industry which took off when American auto manufacturers found cheaper help in Canada because they had single payer healthcare which actually made their unionized auto workers cheaper than their American counterparts.

jgw #312338 05/23/19 07:11 PM
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It is my response to a 'strong military' in a 'constant state of readiness' that we've allowed to do so much carnage, suck up so much of our nations resources and create so much danger for anyone who happens to be living on or near U.S. corporate boards interests.

jgw #312347 05/24/19 10:07 PM
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I think blaming corporations for all ills is a bit of a stretch. Our main problem, right now, is that we have been doing political wars for a very long time. They can't be won and they have no reasonable reason to be happening, and, given Afghanistan, can continue forever. The winners are the military industrial complex and some politicians that started the war in the first place. This is what is going on with Iran right now. We are in bed with Israel and Saudi Arabia and those folks want Iran, and them bad Shia dead (man, woman and child) because they are not human. Not only that but they buy weapons from us too! Since this is a thousand year Muslim war that we are taking part in all we can do, I guess, is whine about it and wish it would stop. This is, incidentally, why I want the draft back (and I know its not gonna happen). I think this stuff has got to stop but its not and its getting worse.

One last - there is simply no way we can count on the American electorate to fix the problem. They continue to prove they are lazy, unable to vote in their own self interest, and we all think that if a turnout is anywhere near 50% voting we call that a landslide. I am no longer convinced that what they are yearning for is a situation where they can get rid of that voting stuff and get somebody who will make ALL their decisions for for them.

jgw #312351 05/24/19 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: jgw
I am no longer convinced that what they are yearning for is a situation where they can get rid of that voting stuff and get somebody who will make ALL their decisions for for them.


I'm convinced of just the opposite. The last guy Trump picked for chairman of the Fed, Stephen Moore, said openly that he has never been a big fan of democracy.
And by pretending that we're trending toward some kind of athenian direct democracy, he can acclimate Americans toward hatred of democracy. Of course, we've never been anything but a slightly limited representative democracy inside the framework of a constitutional republic, but that's just the point.
Moore knows that a fascist dictatorship can also be a constitutional republic, and so do the rest of the hardcore Trump Republicans.

And that's what they want. And they'll stop at nothing to get it.


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jgw #312356 05/25/19 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: jgw
I think blaming corporations for all ills is a bit of a stretch.


O.K. JGW, sure, if you say so.

Meanwhile, the left has been sounding the alarm over this for decades.

You can read about it from General Butler's ' War is a Racket ' or General Eisenhower's final warning.

I would simply say that our economic interests shape our foreign policy. Those interests aren't the average citizens interests. Their corporate economic interests. those interests are divided among the directors and shareholders.

That's a pretty small party and no one I know is getting invited. We just foot the bill.

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I think what you are talking about is a consistent lack of regulation by gov. This, I believe, has to do with our system of campaign support which is little else than a system of bribery for an elected class that is, apparently, a lot more interested in keeping their jobs than actually doing them. I have, on occasion explained our system of lobbyists, the reaction remains the same; "are you telling me that the United States has formalized bribery?"

There are solutions but its unlikely any would pass. One is that only money from within a given state can be used for elections and those giving must live in the state in question. Another might be that when an elected retires all remaining campaign fund goto charity. I am sure there are move but those two, by themselves, would make a difference. I have no idea what to do about the choices made between keeping their jobs and doing them.

Useful site: https://www.opensecrets.org/

Part of the problem is that those on the Right are flat out against ANY kind of regulation. They actually believe that if somebody is given the chance they will always make the right decision. I know that can't be true but it is. Social Security, for instance, is bad because people would do the right thing if they were not forced to. This extends to a pile of other 'regulations' (they believe that SS is regulatory in nature). This is, incidentally, why its so important that both sides find common ground for ALL legislation because both sides tend towards extremes of one sort or another. I have often wondered what would happen if all legislation had to be signed off by both political parties before it could be enacted.

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No, JGW, that's not quite what I was talking about.
I was giving an argument against the notion of a military thru an economic and class argument. You'd hope most would agreed about the morality of it. Morals are tricky things though.
Not that I disagree with you with the glaring need for alarm over campaign financing. Again, the 'LEFT' as traditionally understood, and currently exists in the U.S. is all over this issue. You would find much common ground.
I think it's reasonable to take issue with the notion of 'Regulation' being the answer to most of what ails us as a society. I would point out that much of the regulatory agencies are being seriously corroded and dismantled. On that list is climate data and reporting.
Regulatory capture has been an ongoing event thru both hard right and center right administrations since the S&L banking crises in the 80's and the radicalization of the farmers and their families.
As long as you allow the same power structures intact you leave the source and desire for regulatory capture and subversion intact to repeat itself. Which we've seen unfolding for the last 30 years.
Big Mo's been talking for some time now. Who said the only reason we can never have a third party in this country is because the rich won't pay for another one?



Last edited by chunkstyle; 05/29/19 03:18 PM.
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Sorry, I was not clear. I am for just, intelligent and honest regulation. The problem with regulation is simple but there are two sides. The sides are regulation and no regulation. These come in two flavors - extreme. The answer is for both sides to sit down, agree there will be regulation and then both sides find common ground. THAT is regulation and not regulations decided by one side or the other. That is how its all designed. Right now we have 1 side making some really bad decisions and that is hopefully going to get fixed in the future. I should add that the Dem/left side also goes to extremes when it comes to regulation which is why we need 2 sides as neither is perfect. The ultimate deciders are the people represented in the voting electorate.

As far as I can tell both political sides, as well as the electorate, have just failed. The difference, I think, is that one side has decided to make it all their way and that would be the Republicans and that started with Newt Gingrich who had the Contract for America which laid out their principles along with the determination not to compromise. They have stuck with that through thick and thin and was the basis for what we have now. That being said the Democrats have been playing catchup, and defense, ever since. They just never understood that the Contract killed the idea of both sides sitting down and finding the new mythic common ground and the system has been melting down ever since. I can Remember Obama, for instance, making overture over overture to the Republicans and they were ALL rejected. Its really time the Democrats came to terms, figured that one out and went back to the drawing board. People tend to forget that the Republicans, quite publicly, announced that they would reject and fight ANY legislation that Obama might propose. They stuck to that. Obamacare is a case in point. I remember when that got marked up. The Republicans actually were responsible for much of Obamacare but not a single one voted for it!

I really have no solution to these things. I do believe they are pretty much recognized but nobody seems to have a solution. What we probably need is a genuine leader as president who can make this his job, the only job, and get it done. This, of course, is simply wishful thinking, but one can hope?

I am not sure what power structures you are talking about. I do know that there is a left and right and both have the capacity to go too far. I also know that the right is like a dog with a bone. They have goals and they are neither pretty nor good for the nation and they are sticking to them. I also know that they are much better than the Dems at making their case as they march in lockstep, listen to their leaders, and understand how to demonize (not sure the Dems even know what that is). The Dems, on the other hand spend most of their time battling each other instead of the opposition and seem to agree with each other as much as the Republicans don't do that.

When there are two sides and one side has a problem getting along with itself and the other sides doesn't the side that presents a common front wins. This is true anytime you have two sides. If the generals are not in agreement they all lose. I don't think anybody disagrees with that and that is what we now have. This is not meant to start an argument or piss you off. However, your determination to label every belief as this and that, right and wrong, etc. when referring to the left (witch, according to you doesn't exist) is an excellent example of how the Dems seem to consistently demonstrate that they can "lose spectacularly". Sometimes they win, sometimes they don't but they never seem to really get it and its frustrating.

There is a consistent joke about the left joining hands and singing cumbaya. The problem is that they really don't and its a shame. The simple fact that Bernie supporters, rather than vote for a woman who had been demonized for over 30 years, that the opposition had spent over 100 million dollars trying to take down, etc. but was seen, by these particular members of the left as evil, the devil, who did monstrous things, etc. is another great example of what is wrong with the left. They say that the 'middle' is now more populated than either side. Those are folks who watch the left with a distrust and humor. Who in the world would support such a group? You really can't support a group that can't actually even support itself! They don't like the right and the left is a kindofa joke. They have some good ideas but they can't be counted on. The right is not a joke and they certainly can be counted on. Their problem is pretty simple - they REALLY don't represent the majority of the voting public.

The only thing that might actually save the left, this time, is Trump the Jackass. This is a rare instance wherein the left is actually in agreement about something - overwhelming dislike of Trump. That may actually save them - this time.

As an aside I would add that the House has now passed something over 200 pieces of legislation. That being said they have been curiously silent on what they have been doing, other than to state that they have been doing some legislating. Yet another example of Democratic obscurantism and that is a shame. One would think that they could, at least, stand up for their own actions!

Enough - apologies if you are offended.........

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Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

Big Mo's been talking for some time now. Who said the only reason we can never have a third party in this country is because the rich won't pay for another one?




No one here has ever said that, and far as I know, I've always said that the reason we can never have a third party is because no one is interested in doing the legwork to set up a power base first.
Every third party I know of in all the elections in my lifetime always does the same damn stupid thing, run some guy for POTUS.
Then, after the election, which he LOSES, that party shrinks down to a PO Box and maybe an 800 number or a website for the next 3.5 years.
Then the cycle repeats itself for six months, lather rinse, repeat:

3.5 years dormancy, 0.5 years POTUS campaign, 3.5 years dormancy.

Unless and until enough third party people gather the political will to build a groundswell of support FROM THE BOTTOM UP, you will not see any third party gain a foothold.
There is NO TOP DOWN model that works, or we would have seen it happen already.

Far as I can see, third parties in this country exist as a vote siphon, mostly to help the Republicans, with one notable exception, and that was by accident, in 1992.


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Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

Big Mo's been talking for some time now. Who said the only reason we can never have a third party in this country is because the rich won't pay for another one?




Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
No one here has ever said that.....


Well let me be the first! Money is power, power is money. Third Parties want to usurp power. More often than not to take money from the powerful and give it to the powerless. Let's be honest here, the rich won't pay for a third party that aims to take their hard earned money and give it to the poor. Not even if it's just a tiny fraction, they will not give up one red cent to fund their downfall.

Presidential elections are high profile events, third parties don't imagine they can win but during a national election at least they can get the word out that there are other choices. Even though there really aren't.

Not enough donor money to run lots of candidates for local elections.
Money is power, power is money. If you aint got money...you aint gettin' no power.


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