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I like Monty Python.

...

What’s the plan, Stan?


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
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Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
It's odd that I simply point out where there is consensus in the two parties. I thought that was the implied title thread?

Or is this more exercise in joining a group consensus?

Sorry. Guess I'm not the sharpest pencil in the drawer it seems with what your after.

Do we need a revolution, maybe? I'm ready for some action!


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My two cents, there are differences on some issues. Other issues a party takes their stances depending on who's president like the raising debt ceiling votes of the past for example. Most Democrats voting against raising the debt ceiling during Bush Jr. while most Republicans voting for raising it. During Obama the reverse was true, Democrats voting for raising it, Republicans against.

But where they are the same is that both parties owe their hearts and souls to corporations, wall street firms, lobbyist, special interest groups, mega money donors etc. That where they get most of their tens and hundreds of millions of dollars to run their organizations and campaigns. I just went through an election where well over a billion dollars was spent by both parties on two senate elections. These two senators in my opinion were bought.

One of my biggest pet peeve is these days neither party takes the other party's proposals seriously. If one party proposes something, the other party is automatically against it regardless of the merits of it or lacking merit.Everything is party line these days solely based on which party proposed something.

So they're the same in lots of ways in much more than I mentioned while differing in other ways. Now I have come to the conclusion that both major parties always look for what is good for the party and not the nation anymore. That both fail to represent the wishes and wants of the folks back home, just their political party. So they're the same there in my book.

But this is how a non-affiliated, less to non-partisan looks at both major parties. Those who identify or affiliate with either party will have a different point of view about them.


It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.
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Yeah, direct action with political allies is a proven winner. It’s about the only thing that’s improved majorities of people’s lives, IMO.
There’s historical precedent for it anyhow. But that’s tactics, not sure if that’s what the thread was about.

It’s the biggest complaint I’d have of Sanders and a glaring failure of his. A problem when politics is personality driven, like some kind of television programming. He had the shot and he never took it. He could have effed sh!t up in the right sways and direction, unlike that Roger Stone sh!t show personal masterpiece that just went down.

A massive general strike would get attention. Saw something smaller and it got things moving again with the most recent government shutdown over budget. Seems like a million years ago but was only a little over a year ago IIRC.

The problems of living in an eternal time dilation like the present has been. Personally speaking.

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Politics, elections, personality plays a major part. Personality can play a major role in popularity which also plays a major role in politics and elections. Biden won because of Trump's obnoxious, uncouth personality more than anything else in my opinion. Especially among independents who probably wouldn't have voted for a very bland and unenthusiastic, non-charismatic candidate.

Obama had a very good and friendly personality, he won twice. Folks may or may not have liked his policies, but they liked him as a person. Something one can't say about Trump. A good majority of folks didn't like him as a person in 2020.

Personality plays a bigger role along with being charismatic, being able to gather public support than most would think. My two cents anyway.


It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.
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Nelson would be so much better than Trumpka to lead AFL-CIO. She knows how to eff stuff up to get the goods. Stop looking at Republican owners and their Democratic HR department to do anything for people, would be a good place to start thinking.


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High minded rhetoric, but so limited by “if” that there is no sense of what people can actually “do” to create lasting change.

We just saw an example of what some people decided to “do”, but who have no clue as to what comes next. The Trumpers apparently thought that physically dominating a place would magically lead to the vague change they passionately (delusionally) desire. When they achieved their fleeting dominance, they didn’t know what to do besides take gloating selfies and then go home and await arrest (they didn’t factor that result into their plan).

By contrast, this country’s new government (I’m talking 250 years ago) was mapped out before the revolution began. Human interactions are like an incomprehensibly large tensegrity structure, made of cables and struts that are impossibly for the average person to understand how it works. Any kind of revolution, whether it takes the form of an insurrection or a pandemic or a strike, is like cutting a cable or breaking a strut, which has the potential for collapsing the entire structure. If there is no plan for managing the collapse, or quickly reconstructing a new structurally sound system, one metaphor for the result would be “shiit hitting a fan”.

Two possibilities I can think of for attempting massive systemic change would be: 1) carefully planning ahead to anticipate the chain of effects from breaking a strut or cutting a cable in the tensegrity structure and implementing small changes in advance to prepare; 2) using the more popular and common technique sometimes called, “hold my beer and watch this”.

My personal choice is to work on some small preparatory or corrective system changes with the slim hope that they may help avoid the impending collapse, or be useful in the rebuilding efforts following the widespread beer holding events.

In a nod to the topic title, I have found that what the Dems do when in control to be more supportive of what I am trying to do than the Reeps, though most of them don’t grok it to any great level of understanding. It doesn’t help that the efforts of one, or a few people working together, are viewed as insignificant (which they are), and are therefore worthy of little notice. But hey, I’ll take whatever support I can get.


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You really ought to read some history.
You talk like getting large unresponsive, self serving institutions to accommodate its citizens material needs more is some kind of techno managerial problem to solve.

It’s not. It’s the main reason for many of the problems we have today. The ‘professional’ classes that have come to dominate our politics with the accompanying self reenforcing logic. That and the hubris of their intellectual superiority to solve problems has a long and unfortunate history in this country and you seem to be advocating for that. Obamacare is a perfect example of the kind of results that come from your class.

Withdraw labor and watch how quickly minds get changed about provisioning people with basic needs. The airline stewardess striking ended the government shutdown. Inconvenient the wealthy and powerful and make demands. It’s not complicated and has historically worked.

Last edited by chunkstyle; 01/09/21 03:04 PM.
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Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
You really ought to read some history.

What are you waiting for? Just do it!


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
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Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Withdraw labor and watch how quickly minds get changed about provisioning people with basic needs. The airline stewardess striking ended the government shutdown. Inconvenient the wealthy and powerful and make demands. It’s not complicated and has historically worked.

What's the Plan, Stan? You want me to go on strike? You think I'm doing the wrong thing? I don't know what you want me to do, dude. It confuses me that all you want to do is argue, like I'm your enemy, or something.

Reminds me of a little farmer story: Out in the barnyard Rusty the Rooster was crowing all day long, "Kok anuff fer too! Kok anuff fer too!", while the hens was a scratchin' around looking for bugs and quietly saying between themselves, "Tok, tok, tok, tok... tok, tok, tok..."

I'd like to see the business plans for your fantasy actions before I commit to investing.


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
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