Today's Birthdays
There are no members with birthdays on this day.
Current Topics
Winning
by perotista - 10/18/21 12:15 AM
RoundTable For Fall 2021
by pdx rick - 10/17/21 11:46 PM
Mobile sign-in issues
by pdx rick - 10/17/21 04:59 PM
A Musical Quiz
by TatumAH - 10/17/21 02:58 PM
Divorce: American Style
by pdx rick - 10/17/21 01:58 PM
Biden Administration Threads not in Current Topics
by pdx rick - 10/17/21 01:21 AM
A Question of Culture
by pdx rick - 10/16/21 06:57 PM
Arizona Audit/Recount 2020 election
by rporter314 - 10/16/21 05:23 PM
What % of humanity is batsh!t crazy?
by Greger - 10/15/21 07:52 PM
opening schools
by Greger - 10/12/21 12:33 PM
Lyrics
by pondering_it_all - 10/10/21 09:04 PM
Miss Navaho Nation
by logtroll - 10/10/21 02:53 PM
Section 230
by jgw - 10/08/21 08:09 PM
Constitutional Convention
by jgw - 10/06/21 05:41 PM
Whose kid is it, anyway?
by Mellowicious - 10/06/21 03:45 AM
Critters, animal/vegetable, and their place
by pondering_it_all - 10/06/21 01:00 AM
Popular Topics(Views)
9,574,137 my own book page
4,722,062 We shall overcome
3,762,796 Campaign 2016
3,444,057 Trump's Trumpet
2,710,930 3 word story game
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 8 of 10 1 2 6 7 8 9 10
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,675
C
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
C
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,675
So suggest something.

Goodness, if there's something that's a real problem solver you cant share due to rowdy behavior I'll do my Sunday best to not offend.

I'm of the opinion that, beyond organized left wing collective action, there is no solution to wealth inequality, healthcare needs, capitalist logic , environmental exhaustion and collapse, etc. I've Given recent examples of it working. Plenty of historical examples if you need them. Bout the only thing that has worked. No alternative examples have been given yet. Cept metaphores.

You dismissed my suggestions. You had personal misgivings. Fine.


Whats your business plan? You haven't convinced me you have one. I would like to be surprised.

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 18,324
Likes: 36
Carpal Tunnel
Online Content
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 18,324
Likes: 36
I didn't think we were here to fix things.

The way to fix things is to fight for solutions. To fight for better candidates. To fight for better policy. The continued belief that Democrats will actually fix anything has worn thin. Their rhetoric implies they will, their actions imply they won't.

Republicans believe that it is not the governments job to fix anything.

Democrats believe that it is the government's job to fix everything.

I'm a Democratic sympathizer. I'm not a Democratic sycophant.

I despise the Republican Party with every fiber of my being.

yin and yang, y'all...opposite and the same. Spinning endlessly in place until they are nudged left or right.


Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 11,397
Likes: 37
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 11,397
Likes: 37
Originally Posted By: Greger
I didn't think we were here to fix things.

The way to fix things is to fight for solutions. To fight for better candidates. To fight for better policy. The continued belief that Democrats will actually fix anything has worn thin. Their rhetoric implies they will, their actions imply they won't.

Republicans believe that it is not the governments job to fix anything.

Democrats believe that it is the government's job to fix everything.

I'm not trying to fix politics. I'm with Bucky:

“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”

Fingers crossed - maybe folks will like the new model enough to get on board. It surely does take a lot of organizing, though...


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,675
C
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
C
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,675
Meanwhile, while we wait for that, how do you solve a problem like Joe Manchin ...

“ "Sending checks to people that basically already have a check and aren't going to be able spend that or are not going to spend it, usually are putting it in their savings account right now, that's not who we are. We have done an awful lot of that, it's time now to target where the money goes," he added.”

Sen. Manchin prefers targeted stimulus checks

So basically Manchin is acting as HR dept. for republicans and Libs. They can’t help themselves. Targeting and means testing any sense of common good or common services.

Just as in healthcare, we have a corporate Dem tool stomping on the bare minimum of provisioning people that other countries have been able to figure out. The classic example of not what’s right for people but, rather, who’s in administration.

Sadly, the current POTUS was able to recognize the need, even if it was primarily self serving. Not that it hasn’t been for the other team to deny provisioning.






Last edited by chunkstyle; 01/11/21 09:48 PM.
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 11,397
Likes: 37
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 11,397
Likes: 37


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 11,397
Likes: 37
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 11,397
Likes: 37
Originally Posted By: Greger
Republicans believe that it is not the governments job to fix anything.

Democrats believe that it is the government's job to fix everything.

So that's why there's no difference?


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 11,397
Likes: 37
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 11,397
Likes: 37
Originally Posted By: Greger
yin and yang, y'all...opposite and the same.

Laurel and Hardy?

Bogart and Bacall?


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 11,397
Likes: 37
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 11,397
Likes: 37
Lindsey and Graham?


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,675
C
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
C
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,675
Originally Posted By: Greger
I didn't think we were here to fix things.

The way to fix things is to fight for solutions. To fight for better candidates. To fight for better policy. The continued belief that Democrats will actually fix anything has worn thin. Their rhetoric implies they will, their actions imply they won't.

Republicans believe that it is not the governments job to fix anything.

Democrats believe that it is the government's job to fix everything.

I'm a Democratic sympathizer. I'm not a Democratic sycophant.

I despise the Republican Party with every fiber of my being.

yin and yang, y'all...opposite and the same. Spinning endlessly in place until they are nudged left or right.


I agree about identifying problems and organizing around them. So far, Dems have ignored the progressives and leftists. For me, it’s about getting their attention and m making them respond. Very good examples of this happening in the past, not so much in the last 2-3 decades at least, IMO.

The other problem is the scolding performative nature of some orgs out there. Some much larger Orgs than what we witnessed this week with Trumps Qanon riot. Having little effect, in my view. Pink pussy hats with the Washington march comes to mind. No ask. No identified problem cept ‘there’s an orange Cheeto in the White House!’ venting.

I’ve been involved in community orgs as well and experienced this same problem at t the grass roots level. Instead of organizing around objectives they become spleen venting sessions around the latest indignation’s from corporate news infotainment.

There was an attempt to bring in a pro. Story I got was she had trained under Alindky himself. She was on her 80’s and sharp as hell. There was an excellent structure, very horizontal and creative. Recognized it immediatly from earlier employment. A technique to define gosls, objectives and tactics.

Trouble was the same Libs wanted to skip the process. Too bad. Thought it was very useful. My personal opinion was that, while well intentioned, the participants were better off and had no real problems. They weren’t grinders or mechanics that were willing to go to work. The group disbanded soon after.

I’ve found this to be true of groups organizing around racism. That ‘White Fragility’ book... I dunno.

We’ve had some bad national press in Buffallo and Rochester with protest getting brutalized, black communities suffering state violence, a mental crises resulting in another choke out aired on national networks.
Occupying public spaces is radicalizing but seems to have been ignored By power as much as the Womens March or Airport protests or, well, about anything anymore.

I believe with others who’ve made the critique of our having created an illiberal democracy from a formerly liberal one. The state does not respond to the basic material needs of much of the citizenry. Who would argue that point currently?

I’m doubtful that it can be made too in a more left humane way. I don’t see the vehicle to deliver the pressure that has been there in the past. I do see the continuation of the rightward momentum though. There doesn’t seem to be an alternative.






Last edited by chunkstyle; 01/11/21 11:04 PM.
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 11,397
Likes: 37
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 11,397
Likes: 37
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
I believe with others who’ve made the critique of our having created an illiberal democracy from a formerly liberal one. The state does not respond to the basic material needs of much of the citizenry. Who would argue that point currently?

I’m doubtful that it can be made too in a more left humane way. I don’t see the vehicle to deliver the pressure that has been there in the past. I do see the continuation of the rightward momentum though. There doesn’t seem to be an alternative.

Really? Maybe an alternative is as plain as the nose on your face - you just don’t want to see it.


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
Page 8 of 10 1 2 6 7 8 9 10

Link Copied to Clipboard
Who's Online Now
2 members (Greger, 1 invisible), 38 guests, and 1 robot.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
SuZQ2, KevFilthyANML, Risky, Gladys G. Jackson, Beach Baby
6,297 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums61
Topics17,214
Posts311,137
Members6,297
Most Online294
Dec 6th, 2017
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.4.24 Page Time: 0.014s Queries: 36 (0.005s) Memory: 3.0387 MB (Peak: 3.2530 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2021-10-18 00:32:03 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS