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So suggest something.

Goodness, if there's something that's a real problem solver you cant share due to rowdy behavior I'll do my Sunday best to not offend.

I'm of the opinion that, beyond organized left wing collective action, there is no solution to wealth inequality, healthcare needs, capitalist logic , environmental exhaustion and collapse, etc. I've Given recent examples of it working. Plenty of historical examples if you need them. Bout the only thing that has worked. No alternative examples have been given yet. Cept metaphores.

You dismissed my suggestions. You had personal misgivings. Fine.


Whats your business plan? You haven't convinced me you have one. I would like to be surprised.

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I didn't think we were here to fix things.

The way to fix things is to fight for solutions. To fight for better candidates. To fight for better policy. The continued belief that Democrats will actually fix anything has worn thin. Their rhetoric implies they will, their actions imply they won't.

Republicans believe that it is not the governments job to fix anything.

Democrats believe that it is the government's job to fix everything.

I'm a Democratic sympathizer. I'm not a Democratic sycophant.

I despise the Republican Party with every fiber of my being.

yin and yang, y'all...opposite and the same. Spinning endlessly in place until they are nudged left or right.


Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...
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Originally Posted By: Greger
I didn't think we were here to fix things.

The way to fix things is to fight for solutions. To fight for better candidates. To fight for better policy. The continued belief that Democrats will actually fix anything has worn thin. Their rhetoric implies they will, their actions imply they won't.

Republicans believe that it is not the governments job to fix anything.

Democrats believe that it is the government's job to fix everything.

I'm not trying to fix politics. I'm with Bucky:

You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.

Fingers crossed - maybe folks will like the new model enough to get on board. It surely does take a lot of organizing, though...


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
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Meanwhile, while we wait for that, how do you solve a problem like Joe Manchin ...

"Sending checks to people that basically already have a check and aren't going to be able spend that or are not going to spend it, usually are putting it in their savings account right now, that's not who we are. We have done an awful lot of that, it's time now to target where the money goes," he added.

Sen. Manchin prefers targeted stimulus checks

So basically Manchin is acting as HR dept. for republicans and Libs. They cant help themselves. Targeting and means testing any sense of common good or common services.

Just as in healthcare, we have a corporate Dem tool stomping on the bare minimum of provisioning people that other countries have been able to figure out. The classic example of not whats right for people but, rather, whos in administration.

Sadly, the current POTUS was able to recognize the need, even if it was primarily self serving. Not that it hasnt been for the other team to deny provisioning.






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You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
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Originally Posted By: Greger
Republicans believe that it is not the governments job to fix anything.

Democrats believe that it is the government's job to fix everything.

So that's why there's no difference?


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
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Originally Posted By: Greger
yin and yang, y'all...opposite and the same.

Laurel and Hardy?

Bogart and Bacall?


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
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Lindsey and Graham?


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
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Originally Posted By: Greger
I didn't think we were here to fix things.

The way to fix things is to fight for solutions. To fight for better candidates. To fight for better policy. The continued belief that Democrats will actually fix anything has worn thin. Their rhetoric implies they will, their actions imply they won't.

Republicans believe that it is not the governments job to fix anything.

Democrats believe that it is the government's job to fix everything.

I'm a Democratic sympathizer. I'm not a Democratic sycophant.

I despise the Republican Party with every fiber of my being.

yin and yang, y'all...opposite and the same. Spinning endlessly in place until they are nudged left or right.


I agree about identifying problems and organizing around them. So far, Dems have ignored the progressives and leftists. For me, its about getting their attention and m making them respond. Very good examples of this happening in the past, not so much in the last 2-3 decades at least, IMO.

The other problem is the scolding performative nature of some orgs out there. Some much larger Orgs than what we witnessed this week with Trumps Qanon riot. Having little effect, in my view. Pink pussy hats with the Washington march comes to mind. No ask. No identified problem cept theres an orange Cheeto in the White House! venting.

Ive been involved in community orgs as well and experienced this same problem at t the grass roots level. Instead of organizing around objectives they become spleen venting sessions around the latest indignations from corporate news infotainment.

There was an attempt to bring in a pro. Story I got was she had trained under Alindky himself. She was on her 80s and sharp as hell. There was an excellent structure, very horizontal and creative. Recognized it immediatly from earlier employment. A technique to define gosls, objectives and tactics.

Trouble was the same Libs wanted to skip the process. Too bad. Thought it was very useful. My personal opinion was that, while well intentioned, the participants were better off and had no real problems. They werent grinders or mechanics that were willing to go to work. The group disbanded soon after.

Ive found this to be true of groups organizing around racism. That White Fragility book... I dunno.

Weve had some bad national press in Buffallo and Rochester with protest getting brutalized, black communities suffering state violence, a mental crises resulting in another choke out aired on national networks.
Occupying public spaces is radicalizing but seems to have been ignored By power as much as the Womens March or Airport protests or, well, about anything anymore.

I believe with others whove made the critique of our having created an illiberal democracy from a formerly liberal one. The state does not respond to the basic material needs of much of the citizenry. Who would argue that point currently?

Im doubtful that it can be made too in a more left humane way. I dont see the vehicle to deliver the pressure that has been there in the past. I do see the continuation of the rightward momentum though. There doesnt seem to be an alternative.






Last edited by chunkstyle; 01/11/21 11:04 PM.
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Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
I believe with others whove made the critique of our having created an illiberal democracy from a formerly liberal one. The state does not respond to the basic material needs of much of the citizenry. Who would argue that point currently?

Im doubtful that it can be made too in a more left humane way. I dont see the vehicle to deliver the pressure that has been there in the past. I do see the continuation of the rightward momentum though. There doesnt seem to be an alternative.

Really? Maybe an alternative is as plain as the nose on your face - you just dont want to see it.


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
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