Today's Birthdays
There are no members with birthdays on this day.
Current Topics
lamda variant
by pondering_it_all - 08/03/21 06:44 PM
Doug Thompson column for January 7
by Jeffery J. Haas - 08/03/21 01:18 AM
Winning
by perotista - 08/02/21 08:04 PM
no vaccine folks
by jgw - 08/02/21 06:46 PM
The Disintegration of Trumpism
by perotista - 08/02/21 05:32 PM
Government
by jgw - 08/01/21 06:47 PM
California Drought, Grapes of Wrath in Reverse?
by Greger - 07/30/21 02:19 PM
Summertime Roundtable
by logtroll - 07/30/21 12:56 PM
Lies and the Law
by Greger - 07/30/21 01:18 AM
Vaccines, over 65, youth
by Jeffery J. Haas - 07/29/21 11:04 AM
Arizona Audit/Recount 2020 election
by pondering_it_all - 07/27/21 11:54 PM
Roundtable for Spring 2021
by Jeffery J. Haas - 07/26/21 12:18 PM
cdc report
by pondering_it_all - 07/23/21 08:47 PM
Haiti - little problem
by Greger - 07/21/21 05:39 PM
Hyperinflation, debt, and the survival of nations
by pondering_it_all - 07/12/21 08:26 PM
Popular Topics(Views)
9,391,086 my own book page
4,593,467 We shall overcome
3,582,517 Campaign 2016
3,297,374 Trump's Trumpet
2,580,454 3 word story game
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 17,502
Likes: 2
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel
OP Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 17,502
Likes: 2
During my morning reading I was struck by a thought: "conservatism" seems to no longer have home. It was inspired by a pair of specific pieces: Is Capitalism Killing Conservatism? by Ross Douthat in the New York Times (Subscription); and How to talk to insurrectionists and conspiracy theorists on CNN. This in the midst of the devolution of the GOP, McConnell's pledge to obstruct everything Biden proposes, the "canceling" of Liz Cheney and Mitt Romney, the recall of Gavin Newsom, and the continued existence of QAnon post Trump.

This may seem like disparate inspirations for the question, but it follows a statement by Douthat in his piece (as usual, thoughtful but wrong), "This is a specific version of a longstanding argument about the tensions between traditionalism and capitalism, which seems especially relevant now that the right doesn’t know what it’s conserving anymore." This is really my premise. The current GOP is no longer conservative, in any normal sense of the word.

Trumpism is a peculiar amalgam of self-contradictory impulses, but it is not conservatism, yet it now controls the GOP - or more accurately Grand QAnon Nazi Party. But its viability as a movement is based upon the separation of its adherents from the community, hence the relevance of the second piece 2, "How to talk..." The problem, as I see it, is that Republicans no longer have an organizing principle. It doesn't connect with traditional values, or even reality, anymore, and has no credibility. Without that, I think, it has created a void where conservative thought (such that it ever was) used to reside. Can, and should, it be resurrected?


A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,241
Likes: 4
J
jgw Offline
old hand
Offline
old hand
J
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,241
Likes: 4
There have been a number of conservatives which have joined the Democratic party and they all say that they remain conservatives. Historically this is not possible because the Democrats are against almost everything conservative. I don't think that those folks will do too well as Democrats unless they can be converted. How they blend in with the left wing of the Democratic party is even more doubtful. All that being said I suspect there will be a bit of infighting until it all works out.

The Trump thing is a brand new thing. If Trump goes away those remaining Republicans have no real home and the Democratic conservatives can return home.

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 17,502
Likes: 2
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel
OP Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 17,502
Likes: 2
Ironically, I think Biden actuality represents more traditional conservative "values" than any of the current leaders of the movement or the party. What would those be? Support for the community and local government; respect for religion; deference to the Constitution, laws and fairness; national security and a robust international presence; encouraging the dignity of work; and building national infrastructure.


A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 11,075
Likes: 10
L
veteran
Offline
veteran
L
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 11,075
Likes: 10
I wonder if conservative values will ever relate in any way to conserving anything of value...


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 18,060
Likes: 8
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 18,060
Likes: 8
Republicans have left conservatism behind in favor of authoritarian single party rule.

Quote
Far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy
.

Does that sound like where they're going?

It's the definition of fascism.

But not to worry! The Democratic Party is plenty conservative if you can't stomach the Trumpies.


Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,241
Likes: 4
J
jgw Offline
old hand
Offline
old hand
J
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,241
Likes: 4
The only values the Republicans seem to have these days have everything to do with the values of Trump and that one is a very hard thing to pin down. Their own seem to be more defined. That is, basically, dedication to their dear leader. That's it! Nothing more, nothing less! Its really gotta be difficult as the Trump values are, basically, Trump worship - even by Trump! Amazing!!

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 11,158
Likes: 11
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 11,158
Likes: 11
It was easy to tell the GOP had been destroyed as a viable Party at their last convention: They said their platform was "Anything Trump Wants", recognizing that what Trump wants could change on a dime. At this point, I think he could mix up the cyanide KoolAid, and most of them would get in line. I doubt you can come back politically from sedition, insurrection, supporting Putin, pardoning criminals for cash, looting the treasury, etc.


We're flying electric helicopters on Mars yet you can't turn on your clothes dryer in Texas. That's because scientists are in charge of Mars, and Republicans are in charge of Texas.
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 1,450
Likes: 2
member
Offline
member
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 1,450
Likes: 2
According to Gallup, Americans who view themselves as conservative 36%. Pretty steady since 1992 only going up and down a point or two. Moderates, 35% down from 43% in 1992, Liberal 25%, up from 17% in 1992.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/328367/americans-political-ideology-held-steady-2020.aspx

Now there are many conservatives who don't view Trump as a conservative, just a man without a political ideology. One that went with the ideology of whatever party Trump belonged to at the time which has been many as he has switched parties 7 times and counting. This is especially true with traditional conservatives who are the ones leaving the Trump lead Republican Party. But they're not joining the democratic party, they have moved into the independent column. Now your neo, social, religious, fiscal conservatives and some more different types of conservatives have remained loyal to Trump and his led GOP.

This also shows up in party affiliation/identification numbers. 30% of the electorate identified with the GOP in Nov 2020, today down to 26%. 31% were democrats, the same percentage, 31% who are democrats today. Independents have risen from 36% in Nov 2020 up to 40% today.

Those numbers are dynamic and change month to month, but the trend is away from the GOP into the independent column, not into the democratic column. I would think these never Trumpers or traditional conservatives who fled the Republican Party, their voting habits haven't changed, just who they identify as.

Nov 2020 probably shows this, many never Trumpers voted for Biden and he won by 7 plus million votes. But the never Trumpers then voted Republican down ballot which enabled the GOP to pick up 14 house seats, 2 state legislatures and a governorship.


It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,062
member
Offline
member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,062
I would love to have Romney leave the GOP!


There's nothing wrong with thinking
Except that it's lonesome work
sevil regit
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,241
Likes: 4
J
jgw Offline
old hand
Offline
old hand
J
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,241
Likes: 4
This morning I watched a guy, who marched on 1/6 and got himself charged, say that Trump had somehow replaced Jesus (really!) and he was just doing what Trump told him to do. His attorney had him plead not guilty due to "foxitis" (its impossible to make this stuff up!)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-police-officer-says-client-Foxitis.html

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 56 guests, and 1 robot.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
KevFilthyANML, Risky, Gladys G. Jackson, Beach Baby, Superfly
6,296 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums61
Topics17,167
Posts308,834
Members6,296
Most Online294
Dec 6th, 2017
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.4.21 Page Time: 0.012s Queries: 36 (0.003s) Memory: 3.0296 MB (Peak: 3.2529 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2021-08-04 08:41:53 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS