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#334229 05/19/21 01:15 PM
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Lying is a major problem for humans. I might tend to think of lying superficially as a clear and well defined act, but the real range and complexity of lying is infinite and ubiquitous - even extending into the contrary realms of good and bad.

Lying is even defended by some interpretations of Constitutionally protected free speech.

What stimulated this post was the anticipation of lies to follow the AZ election ’audit’, but the reason for starting a fresh topic has to do with a construction contract legal dispute that I have been enjoying for three years now. The essence of the dispute has to do with a progress payment application that the owner refused to allow based upon her “feeling that the contractor had not done enough work to justify the payment”.

As it happens, the process stipulated by the bank for disbursements of loan funds requires that a 3rd party professional be engaged to do an inspection to correlate and certify that the goods and/or services for which payment is requested had actually been delivered - the “feelings” of the client are not in the contract anywhere. Oddly, neither the client, nor the bank, have chosen to follow that simple (and pre-funded) contractual requirement.

In a bizarre dance that has now involved four judges and eight learned barristers on the opposing side, and (fortunately) one retired, and highly experienced attorney working for us pro bono, we are three years into a mess wherein the substance of the dispute (the failure to have a competent 3rd party inspection and certification) has never been presented in court. The reason for this is the absolute avalanche of lies and fraudulent speculation about why we didn’t deserve to be paid have so befuddled the not-so-competent judges into thinking that this may be the most complex case ever to come before them, that they prefer to punt, and grant any motion to delay that is put before them. (One of the more amusing ones was a motion to dismiss by the bank on the grounds that the payment protocol imposed by them, that they refuse to implement, is not a contractual agreement with us, therefore they are free to ignore it).

I should throw in here that I have no good idea of why the bank has refused to follow their own progress payment protocol - they took $3750 from the client’s loan funds up front at closing to pay for 3rd party progress payment inspections - are they simply trying to skim that amount from their client? If so, they have now spent an estimated $50,000 on lawyers to protect $3750 in ill-gotten booty. Incidentally, we did finally hire a 3rd party inspector (a retired architect) to certify our pay app, which he did - but the bank and our former client are trying to dismiss his evidence as biased - because we paid him...

To the point (the topic is lying and the law), we finally got the parties to agree to binding arbitration (which as stipulated in our contract to be the first recourse in case of any contract dispute, in order to avoid the courts...). For arbitration, the same discovery process is followed as for a lawsuit, so we have been in the process of corralling our former client, collecting evidence debunking her amazing string of frauds and lies. For the most part, her attorneys have not done any due diligence in ascertaining which of her facts are true, and have merely repeated them to the court. A couple of years ago, she engaged her insurance company, who is now defending her, but not prosecuting any claims against us. She attempted to represent her companies (two are involved, an LLC and a corporation) but as she is not an attorney, that is not allowed by law. She is representing herself as an individual, however.

The discovery process is gradually awakening her insurance provided counsel to the fact that she has been lying to them (no prior due diligence into their client’s statements, either) which puts them in a difficult situation - they can’t ethically represent lies, and could be sanctioned if they do.

In a strategy review conversation with our counsel yesterday, he said that given the now well-documented pattern and practice of lying by our (primary) opponent, he plans to file a motion to prevent her from testifying on the basis of having put a fraud upon the court. If the motion is granted, she (and her irrational and dishonest “feelings”) will have to sit in a soundproof booth while we present our case and the arbitrator decides how much she owes us. The insurance attorneys are not going to be able to mount much of a defense because they will have no assurance that what she told them was the truth.

Perhaps the moral of this post is that, even though lying is pervasive and disgusting, it is possible to navigate our cumbersome ‘rule of law’ to find a cure in the end, even though it is an ugly process.

A real cure would be a healing of the human mind to not be devious, dishonest, and destructive. But I think our extinction will come sooner than that cure!


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
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There's nothing wrong with thinking
Except that it's lonesome work
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I think that some lies are illegal and some are not. Ponzi schemes, for instance, is just lies which end up with everybody losing money, and is illegal. Actually it does seem that if a lie results in somebody losing money then they are illegal. Apparently, however, at least in this country, the same doesn't apply to somebody telling lies to bring down a nation by attacking said nation with lies?

A lie is, I think, saying something that is known to not be true and cannot stand against the truth in the end. The problem is that people have a right to lie so long as nobody gets hurt or separated from their money. When that happen then, I think, some law gets broken. When, however, a nation is attacked by lies, by its citizens, then its OK.

I have a problem with that. The problem, when dealing with politics, is that those problems always seem to be lies. There should be some way to deal with those and I don't think we have any way right now.

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While I love lying lynxes (and virtually every other posture), I despise lying by humans. Sometimes (as a string of Trump campaign attorneys realized) lying in court can result in serious consequences. I had an opponent in court many years ago who was also a licensee of the agency I represented. He routinely lied in virtually every tribunal he appeared before. And not just little fibs, but blatantly, outrageously änd repeatedly, in very Trumpian fashion. Eventually every judge in his home county refused to accept pleadings from him, and I got sanctions in several forums even unrequested. (I almost never requested them.) Sadly, he ultimately died of a brain tumor, which made me wonder if he'd always just been an [censored] (his reputation indicated so), or had been suffering from a brain disorder the whole time.

What this experience taught me though, is that some people deploy lying as a strategy, rather than something that is morally reprehensible. That has become the preferred operational strategy of the modern GOP. My experience has also taught me that combating it is difficult, cumbersome, but necessary.


A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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Our entire judicial system has been based on the fact that men tell the truth under oath.

That's no longer the case.

Bullsh*t legal strategies have become the norm.


Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...
Greger #334248 05/20/21 12:53 PM
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I’d modify that slightly to say, “a strategy of chaos resulting from boolshit storms”, which is also known as the Trumpian Gambit.

The basic BS strategy is fairly easily identified, but a storm of BS can be extremely disorienting. I have learned that humans tend to max out at holding three thoughts simultaneously in our minds (think of going to the grocery store without a list... also, it is standard advice when giving a talk to limit yourself to three points, and to make them three times). What happens when additional points are included is the previous ones fall out of mind, the result being incomprehensible chaos.


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
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Crows can only count to 3, more than that is considered as Many

Quote
An old story says that crows have the ability to count. Three hunters go into a blind situated near a field where watchful crows roam. They wait, but the crows refuse to move into shooting range. One hunter leaves the blind, but the crows won't appear. The second hunter leaves the blind, but the crows still won't budge. Only when the third hunter leaves, the crows realize that the coast is clear and resume their normal feeding activity.

Neurobiologists have discovered cells in the crow brain that respond to a specific number of items. The study provides valuable insights into the biological roots of counting capabilities. What makes this finding even more interesting is that a long evolutionary history separates us from birds; as a consequence, the brains of crows and humans are designed very differently.

Not very different apparently!

TAT


There's nothing wrong with thinking
Except that it's lonesome work
sevil regit
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!
.
.

It is, in fact, the fourth hunter who emerges to kill the crows...
.

It is exactly how propaganda works...

if you know how the creature's mind works you can use that to control them.


Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...
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There is one other thing about liars, particularly those that lie all the time. They are, basically crazy and have little or no connection with the reality the rest of us try to deal with. I am actually not convinced that is the problem with Trump.

As a matter of fact I am not too sure that we now have a huge number of crazy people who simply cannot deal with reality and have taken another path.

On the other hand I also wonder if its possible that this is a brand new mental illness which has taken hold, perhaps spread by the pandemic?

In any case, given that it seem we are all going to have to come to terms with dealing with these people then, perhaps, its time for the shrinks to make this a regular disease and then gov can step in and force everybody to be examined by an office lie doctor and issue a card as to whether the person in question is, or is not, officially, a liar that cannot help him/her self. If they are then you have another choice. Listen to the lies or just walk. This solution would create jobs (for lie doctors, card makers, etc) and give others a chance to just walk away.

Last edited by jgw; 05/20/21 05:25 PM.
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Cards are not a solution. Google searches for fake vaccination cards are way up. Just tattoo "LIAR" in big bold block letters on their foreheads.


We're flying electric helicopters on Mars yet you can't turn on your clothes dryer in Texas. That's because scientists are in charge of Mars, and Republicans are in charge of Texas.
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