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Originally Posted by jgw
I remember, when we left Viet Nam we left an entire tribe that had aligned with us (some did get in but most didn't)

The Hmong people, yes?
They were the "hill people" and a lot of them settled in Minneapolis and Detroit.


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The Hmong were situated in and around the PDJ in Laos. In places like Padong, Sam Thong, Long Tieng. VP had his HQ's in Long Tieng. Other tribes in Laos I was familiar with are the Khmu, the karen and the Akha. All lived in different regions of Laos.

With Vietnam, your probably talking about the Montagnards. The Hmong and montagnards were two distinct people with different customs and languages.

Although Montanans can refer to around 30 or more mountainous tribes in Southeast Asia. It's a French word that means Mountain dwellers

Although most refer to the Vietnam Was as one war, it wasn't. There was the war in Northern Laos, the one along the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Laos and Cambodia, the one in South Vietnam and the one in Cambodia. All fought differently using different tactics and equipment. But it was Vietnam that had most of the U.S. troops. There were 122 of us in Laos with Project 404, MEDTC in Cambodia had around 70 if I remember right. At its height there were 536,000 U.S. troops in South Vietnam.

FYI

Troop Strength in South Vietnam

1950 65 US Military MAAG-INDOCHINA
1951 128 US Military
1952 128 US Military
1953 128 US Military
1954 342 US Military MAAG-INDOCHINA BECOMES MAAG VIETNAM
1955 342 US Military
1956 342 US Military
1957 692 US Military
1958 692 US Military
1959 760 US Military
1960 890 US Military
1961 3,205 US MILITARY
1962 11,300 US MILITARY MACV established
1963 16,700 US MILITARY
1964 23,300 US MILITARY MAAG-Vietnam disbanded, MACV Absorbs all its functions
1965 184,300 US Military 22,420 Allied Forces
1966 385,300 US Military 52,500 Allied Forces
1967 485,600 US Military 59,300 Allied Forces
1968 536,100 US Military 65,600 Allied Forces
1969 475,200 US Military 70,300 Allied Forces
1970 334,600 US Military 67,700 Allied Forces
1971 156,800 US Military 53,900 Allied Forces
1972 24,200 US Military 35,500 Allied Forces
1973 50 US Military No Allied Forces US Military attached to the DAO*
MACV deactivated
1974 50 US Military No Allied Forces US Military attached to the DAO*

*Does not count Marine Security Guards for the Embassy and multitude Counsels located around South Vietnam.

Yearly totals are on the 31st of December of each Year. Allied
Forces include Australia, South Korea, Thailand, New Zealand, Philippines and 30 advisers from Taiwan.

1950/51 Figures from Biography of H.S. Truman
1952-1960 Figures from Biography of D.D. Eisenhower
1961-1974 Figures from Col Summers Vietnam Almanac


It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.
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The thing about Vietnam that always amused (almost) me was that the Vietnam war was not even vaguely necessary and a phone call could have stopped it. I suspect the same about our 20 year war but all that one could have ended better had we put in an actually good honest government. We are REALLY bad at nation building! the scary part is that we know this but just keep on trying.

Some that got run out of Afghanistan besides the Russians were:
Rashidun Caliphate, the Mongol Empire led by Genghis Khan, the Timurid Empire of Timur, the Mughal Empire, various Persian Empires, the Sikh Empire, and the British Empire. These are an VERY stubborn people. One would think we would have thought twice before doing what we did. I wonder if we learned anything this time around.

The Taliban are about 60,000 Biden said that the government we supported had something in excess of 200,000 troops and should be fine. When we left that army seems to have fallen apart, along with their guns. Afghanistan is returning to its tribal roots and its gonna get messy.

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When was this phone call supposed to take place and to whom was the phone call supposed to be to? I've heard a lot of things about Vietnam, some true, some totally false,but this is first time I've heard this.

I do believe the Taliban will be eventually successful. They want it more and the Taliban will fight a war to win. They'll do whatever it take.


It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.
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Quote
When was this phone call supposed to take place and to whom was the phone call supposed to be to?
Wasn't there a naval skirmish just precedent to the US escalation?

A case of mistaken identity on the high seas? Perhaps a phone call with the facts about that could have made a difference.

Not everybody is ready to sign on to the notion of Western Liberalism. Tribal cultures should be left alone and allowed to govern themselves as they see fit.

Mostly the US military machine is fast running out of willing participants in its quest to blow up ordinance and test new equipment.


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The initial attack on the USS Maddox on 2 Aug 1964 definitely happened, no doubt about that one. The attack on the USS Turner Joy on 4 Aug 1964 , probably didn't happen. That's the consensus which I believe. Nerves and the fog of war most likely.

Now LBJ didn't introduce combat troops into Vietnam until 8 Mar 1965.

Yes, I also believe tribal and national culture should be left alone and that they should determine their own form of government. We didn't do that in Vietnam either.

I will say like so many events that have happened in history, Vietnam is taken out of the context of the times it happened and viewed through a 21st century context. I think in order to understand it, one must look through the eyes of someone putting Vietnam into its proper time and context it took place.

Was LBJ right in using the Gulf of Tonkin resolution to introduce well over 500,000 into South Vietnam, I don't think so. Like all of our wars since WWII, congress has never declared war. Sure they passed some resolutions giving their consent to use military force, but they have never declared war on anyone or any nation or anything since WWII which is congress's responsibility.

Truman never got a congressional resolution for Korea and Obama never received on for Libya. Both operated on a UN resolution.


It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.
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My understanding that president Johnson could have called Hi Chi Minh who was open to discussion, instead he chose to up the ante. This was a long time ago - I could be wrong. Oh, should also mention that we were supporting yet another incredibly corrupted government as well

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If you believe old Ho was open to discussion, that's life. There's no doubt the South Vietnamese government was corrupt. By our standards anyway. Not necessarily by other Asian countries at the time. It's a matter of context again, by western standards or by Asian standards. Especially Southeast Asian standards of the 50's and 60's.

It was in 1959 that old Uncle Ho and the politburo of North Vietnam decided on military conquest of the south. No phone call would have sufficed. LBJ even offered Uncle Ho billions and billions of dollars to improve the north if Old Ho would stop trying to conquer the south. Ho turned LBJ down.

If JFK had listened to IKE, perhaps Vietnam could have been avoided. Perhaps, but not for sure. IKE kept us out of Vietnam twice during his presidency. IKE told JFK that Laos was the key to Southeast Asia. JFK ignored the old general. There's much, much more to the story. From all I've read, bio's and on the different wars in southeast Asia, I don't think IKE would have got us involved in Vietnam. Laos, probably. IKE did tell JFK that if we were to become involved military in Southeast Asia, Laos was the country. Again much, much more to be told on that.

Now I'm biased on the subject, I spent 10 years of my life in Southeast Asia, May 1967-July 1976 compliments of the U.S. Army. Vietnam is much like politics, one isn't going to change anyone political views and one isn't going to change anyone's view about Vietnam. So for the most part I leave it alone.

Our biggest mistake wasn't understanding the Asian frame of mind. Especially the Vietnamese frame of mind or how they thought. Time to the Vietnamese was basically irrelevant, it took Vietnam a 1,000 years to drive the Chinese out of Vietnam, whats 20-30 years to drive out the Americans. We Americans love a short war, we were never and aren't prepared for a long one even today. We want cheap, quick victories like G.H.W. Bush's Desert Storm. Then there is the air of superiority we Americans show to the world. Too many of our advisors had that and weren't willing to live with and like the troops we were advising. Although we had a bunch of real good advisors.

Oh well, it is what it is or was.


It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.
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I think wars have become rather passé at this point in history.

Un-necessary.

Wars used to be local affairs involving a few hundreds or thousands of lives. Then they morphed into Global conflicts that affected millions, and now we find ourselves in a position of mutually assured destruction.

And so we fight proxy wars because a real, declaration of war means complete destruction of life as we know it on this planet.

President Biden has wisely decided not to send soldiers to Haiti.

Haiti could be/should be a tourist Mecca and a socialist Utopia, but it is instead a microcosm of the wide wide world, with rampant inequality and injustice. Used up by capitalism and thrown away.


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