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by olyve - 09/22/21 01:04 AM
Vaccine Refusers Don’t Get to Dictate Terms Anymore
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Masks, after vaxx, after delta
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Sidesism
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Jan 6 Select Committee Hearings - are you watching
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If you never got vaccinated, about half of Long Haulers say they are much improved by getting one SARS-COV2 vaccination. I think it sort of resets their immune system to have the foreign antigen to fight. Then once it's gone, their immune system settles down. There are a lot of doctors and specialty clinics that treat Long Haulers now.


We're flying electric helicopters on Mars yet you can't turn on your clothes dryer in Texas. That's because scientists are in charge of Mars, and Republicans are in charge of Texas.
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Originally Posted by pondering_it_all
If you never got vaccinated, about half of Long Haulers say they are much improved by getting one SARS-COV2 vaccination. I think it sort of resets their immune system to have the foreign antigen to fight. Then once it's gone, their immune system settles down. There are a lot of doctors and specialty clinics that treat Long Haulers now.

Los Angeles-based Cedars-Sinai

Crap...
Okay, I'll do the horrible Whittier to West LA jaunt a couple of times a month if they can help me.
Was sorta kinda hoping AltaMed had something a lot closer.


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jgw #334951 08/02/21 07:12 PM
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I thought I would update the lambda variant. They are now saying that its as bad as the current bad but also may be resistant to current vaccines. For some reason this is being ignored by the media but I have faith.

Here is a quote: "The lambda variant carries a number of mutations with suspected implications, such as potential increased transmissibility or possible increased resistance to neutralizing antibodies, the WHO says. But it says the full extent of those mutations' impact isn't yet well understood and will need further study."

This is what they have been saying all along. We are also being told its not to pervasive. If history means anything give it another week or two and then we will have one that is even more likely to infect that the current one and may also be able to mess with our current crop of vaccines. Betcha boosters are going to become VERY popular soon!

Given that we seem to be getting a new, more powerful, more lethal variant every month or so and this will continue until we all get vaccinated then, when that happens I can see a brand new vaccine also coming on the market as well. Given that each new variant seems more catchable, and more deadly, one can only image what we are going to end up with.

We, basically, need to give full thanks to the anti-vaxxers who have been working, most diligently, to make sure that we will continue to be dealing with variants into the future until they manage to have killed themselves off.

https://www.infectioncontroltoday.c...hots-for-older-americans-might-be-needed
Google "lamda variant", goto tools and set the time to last 24 hours for latest and greatest.

jgw #334954 08/02/21 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jgw
I thought I would update the lambda variant. They are now saying that its as bad as the current bad but also may be resistant to current vaccines. For some reason this is being ignored by the media but I have faith.

Here is a quote: "The lambda variant carries a number of mutations with suspected implications, such as potential increased transmissibility or possible increased resistance to neutralizing antibodies, the WHO says. But it says the full extent of those mutations' impact isn't yet well understood and will need further study."

Much of this appears to be based on a study of a group that took the Chinese SinoVac "CoronaVac" which is an inactivated virus vaccine that uses tech similar to the polio vaccine.

SinoVac


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jgw #334956 08/03/21 06:44 PM
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Yes, most vaccines are very specific for a particular original or variant just because of the way the generated antibodies fit on the virus. But any of them activate your T cells, and T cell immunity is much broader. T cells respond to up to 52 epitopes (amino acid sequences that the immune system can "see") on the virus. To evade that response, so much would have to change the virus would not function as SARS-COV2 any more. A recent paper studying people with a genetic condition that prevents them from making any antibodies, found that they had the same clinical response to SARS-COV2 infection as people who do make antibodies. This suggests that antibodies play no part in your body's fight against an initial infection!

We already know that you have to wait a few weeks at least to measure IgM, and even longer to measure any IgG antibodies. Your T-cells have already inactivated all the "live" virus by this time. It looks like antibodies just prevent reinfection for a while. It's perfectly normal for antibody levels to fade. That makes reinfection more likely, but you still have memory T cells and B cells in your lymph nodes and bone marrow that react quickly, And even if it's Delta, Lambda, or Omega, they make a new antibody that is specific for that variant. Antibody levels just tell you your T and B cell chain is working.

New variants seem like they are more contagious because they have slightly better fitness than previous variants. That makes a difference in large populations (like a billion billion virions), but makes almost no difference to individual human hosts. Every transmission event still requires some infected person coughing, shouting, singing, etc. in somebody else's face. We get surges in areas that have low vaccination rates, where the unvaxxed mask refusers get together in crowds. That's EXACTLY what the original virus did! All the media claims that each variant is deadlier than the last is just the result of wider infections. More people end up in the hospital because more people are infected. But that does sell more papers!

A study of Delta variant infected patients found more virus RNA being shed. Seems like a dangerous new variant, doesn't it? The problem is they also ran virus antigen testing on them that reacts to the whole virus nucleocapsid protein, and they found much lower levels than they expected. This means their PCR tests were just showing a lot of virus RNA fragments, but a normal amount of virus being shed. That suggests that Delta is actually LESS fit, since it's replication process spews a lot of bits of virus RNA before it is encapsulated into complete (and infective) virus.


We're flying electric helicopters on Mars yet you can't turn on your clothes dryer in Texas. That's because scientists are in charge of Mars, and Republicans are in charge of Texas.
logtroll #334964 08/05/21 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by logtroll
I wonder why we haven't started charging anti-vaxxers who get Covid, and then infect others, with reckless endangerment? That might help to persuade the morons who think that risking the virus is a purely personal choice.
Thought I’d bring this up again. I just saw another article about DeSantis’ stance - it seems the core of his arguments is that mask mandates violate personal rights (he’s proactively making the same case for vaccines, even though there aren’t any mandates yet). A number of people I know who are resisting masks and vaccines aren’t that way due to ideology; they generally go to the place of, “I don’t want to put that scary stuff in my body.” But when pressed they use the inviolable personal rights argument.

The problem with that is people often don’t see that there is a fuzzy boundary between rights and responsibilities - you don’t have the freedom to infringe on the rights of others. Sometimes crossing that boundary involves several steps though a murky transition from freedom to infringement, like what’s wrong with driving a little drunk if you don’t get in a wreck? If you wreck your own car, what business is it of anyone else?

Of course, if you involve someone else in your car wreck and cause damage to their property or to their body, you will be held responsible. That transition isn’t all that murky, and as a result we have laws against driving drunk that are intended to prevent people from indulging in a behavior that has a high probability of stepping on the rights of others.

The analogy between drunk driving and Covid is weak when looked at from the point of view of using masks and vaccines to protect yourself from catching the virus. But it is strong when viewed from the angle of responsibility to not infect others through a failure to take adequate precautions in the face of a known danger.

The counter argument to the anti-mask/vaccine crowd is to make it clear that if a person willfully refuses to take precautions against transmitting the disease, they will be held responsible for any damage caused to others. That could include medical bills, compensation for lost income, disability support, or even manslaughter.


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
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logtroll #334965 08/05/21 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by logtroll
[quote=logtroll] Sometimes crossing that boundary involves several steps though a murky transition from freedom to infringement, like what’s wrong with driving a little drunk if you don’t get in a wreck? If you wreck your own car, what business is it of anyone else?

Of course, if you involve someone else in your car wreck and cause damage to their property or to their body, you will be held responsible. That transition isn’t all that murky, and as a result we have laws against driving drunk that are intended to prevent people from indulging in a behavior that has a high probability of stepping on the rights of others.

The analogy between drunk driving and Covid is weak when looked at from the point of view of using masks and vaccines to protect yourself from catching the virus. But it is strong when viewed from the responsibility angle to not infect others through a failure to take adequate precautions in the face of a known danger.

The counter argument to the anti-mask/vaccine crowd is to make it clear that if a person willfully refuses to take precautions against transmitting the disease, they will be held responsible for any damage caused to others. That could include medical bills, compensation for lost income, disability support, or even manslaughter.

All great points and this thread is but one of innumerable thousands like it, both online, and in person, that have been argued to death.
But it appears that all of it fails because there's one more argument that deniers feel "trumps" the rest:

FDA approval


Yup, the big appro, the big magilla, the golden meatball...

"You can't force me to take this, it's experimental, it's not proven, the FDA hasn't even granted it full approval!"

Yes, I realize you covered "scary" but I press for specifics when people say it's not FDA approved.
Pot isn't FDA approved but we put that in our bodies, and neither were the Tide Pods you ate last year when that became a TikTok challenge...did you stop to consider if you were putting a non-approved and NON-EDIBLE substance in your body?

I suppose this would be a good spot to insert a millennial doing one of those "duck lips" selfies, but you get the point.

FDA appro is maybe two to three weeks away, and when that shoe drops, a lot of things change.
Suddenly there's a whole lot more law and order on the side of businesses and government entities that wish to pass mandates.
I realize NY already did it and LA is about to follow, but both cities are at risk of lawsuits that challenge those vaccine mandates, until the FDA smashes those challenges with full appro.

It will be interesting to see just how far the needle moves when the folks hanging their hat on FDA appro decide to finally take the shot.
After that, all that's left are the historically loony CT nuts (on both left and right) and victims of Vlad's army of domestic anti-vax influencers.

If Joe is smart, he's already putting the finishing touches on a spate of "IT'S FDA APPROVED!!" public service announcements so they can hit the hopper the moment FDA issues the ruling.

And guess who else is listening with eager anticipation?
All those insurers. Once this stuff gets the full FDA imprimatur, everything changes on that playing field, too.


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Originally Posted by Jeffery J. Haas
All great points and this thread is but one of innumerable thousands like it, both online, and in person, that have been argued to death.
FDA approval will be an interesting development to watch.

Actually, I haven't seen the "reckless endangerment" tactic discussed or argued anywhere. I don't even think that it needs to be argued in order for it to be used - the argument would be in court. It doesn't require any mandates or new laws - I think it could be the basis for real lawsuits now.

If anti-maskers/vaxxers thought they could be sued for damages from willful negligence resulting in infecting others, many of them might take the easy way and just get the jab.

Last edited by logtroll; 08/06/21 12:34 PM. Reason: clarity

You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
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jgw #334973 08/07/21 06:34 PM
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Looks like fear is the great vaccine motivator...
Quote
One answer seems clear in the polling and in the real world: fear. Fear of getting the virus and of losing freedoms looks like it motivates people to get vaccinated.


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
jgw #334974 08/07/21 07:01 PM
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Just knowing your odds should tell people what is smart versus what is bone-headed:

Your odds of dying from a new unvaccinated covid-19 case: 20,000 per million

Your odds of dying from a Covid-19 case after full vaccination: 1 per million

I find it amazing anybody is willing to take that kind of risk, for ANY reason. Maybe this is Natural Selection, if it gets rid of people so stupid they don't understand 20,000 is much larger than 1.


We're flying electric helicopters on Mars yet you can't turn on your clothes dryer in Texas. That's because scientists are in charge of Mars, and Republicans are in charge of Texas.
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