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logtroll #335973 09/15/21 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by logtroll
Originally Posted by Greger
Almost anybody can make one.
And damn few ever become human!
And some lose their humanity in adulthood...


A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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Originally Posted by Mellowicious
Originally Posted by pondering_it_all
Ova and sperm have the potential to become human beings, so I doubt that definition is useful.

Actually, I have an objection to that. Neither a sperm nor an egg has the potential to become anything, until/unless they are combined at the right time and place.
I agree...else fertilization clinics would not exist. Hmm


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Originally Posted by NW Ponderer
Originally Posted by logtroll
Originally Posted by Greger
Almost anybody can make one.
And damn few ever become human!
And some lose their humanity in adulthood...
Weird how Righties want to protect nonviable fetuses, but not school kids from a mass shooting or providing masks in schools so kids don't get COVID. Hmm

Seems rather schizophrenic to me. crazy


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Neither a sperm nor an egg has the potential to become anything, until/unless they are combined at the right time and place.

True for humans for now, but not at all true for many species. For example, a lot of silkworms are conceived just from ova, without fertilization.

Quote
Most animals that procreate through parthenogenesis are small invertebrates such as bees, wasps, ants, and aphids, which can alternate between sexual and asexual reproduction. Parthenogenesis has been observed in more than 80 vertebrate species, about half of which are fish or lizards.
from nationalgeographic.com

If they can do it, so can we. I expect it will take just a few decades to work it out.

Last edited by pondering_it_all; 09/15/21 08:04 PM.

We're flying electric helicopters on Mars yet you can't turn on your clothes dryer in Texas. That's because scientists are in charge of Mars, and Republicans are in charge of Texas.
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You start getting into ethical questions and rumours of eugenics when you delve too deeply into these mysteries.

Like I said...babies are easy to make. You can do it in a test tube. Nowadays you can clone 'em. There is no end to the genetic marvels that modern biomancers could achieve. But mostly stupid young folks with NO means to raise babies are gonna make babies. All too often and unceasingly...

Hard part is taking care of those babies and turning them into useful members of society.

America's future worker/servant class. You don't want to coddle them. Make 'em grow up lean and tough, so they can work three jobs and live on fast food.


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Greger #336002 09/15/21 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Greger
You start getting into ethical questions and rumours of eugenics when you delve too deeply into these mysteries.
What I don't get is why they let so many amateurs compete in procreation. There oughta be a law...


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
Greger #336003 09/15/21 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Greger
You start getting into ethical questions and rumours of eugenics when you delve too deeply into these mysteries.

Like I said...babies are easy to make. You can do it in a test tube. Nowadays you can clone 'em. There is no end to the genetic marvels that modern biomancers could achieve. But mostly stupid young folks with NO means to raise babies are gonna make babies. All too often and unceasingly...

I want repeat something I posted earlier, just because Greger happened to allude to it - “stupid young folks.” That is, that half of the women seeking abortions are over 25.

That is, it’s relatively easy to tut-tut about a stupid young girl who “got into trouble.” (Again, not a shot at Greger or anyone else on this thread. But it’s a common attitude.)

It’s a little more difficult for *some folks* to deal with, say, a 35-year-old rising executive who just doesn’t want a child. Right now. Or maybe ever.

Not all women seeking abortions are young, or poor, although I think poor is more common than young. And abortion rights means rights for any woman, for any reason.

The “young, poor, and stupid” argument is a misdirection, like the conservative references to “late term abortions.” Late term” is meaningless because there’s no definition, and past a certain point, abortions are not done except under extreme circumstances.


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a 35-year-old rising executive who just doesn’t want a child. Right now. Or maybe ever.

In my book, 35 is young, getting yourself accidentally knocked up is stupid. And without a desire for children will never have the emotional means to raise a child.

But that lady can fly anywhere in the world to have the procedure done in a luxury spa.

I'm more concerned with the regular kid in the regular neighborhood who starts college soon and really REALLY doesn't need a baby right now.

There are a million stories, and none of them are any of my business.


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Greger #336024 09/16/21 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Greger
getting yourself accidentally knocked up is stupid.


I'm more concerned with the regular kid in the regular neighborhood who starts college soon and really REALLY doesn't need a baby right now.

Getting accidentally knocked up is stupid? No one “gets herself” knocked up, intentionally or otherwise. No one form of birth control is 100% effective and some of them come with side effects. And, yes, unprotected sex happens, sometimes through ignorance or lack of understanding or unpreparedness (that’s why they call it a sex drive, not a sex walk.)

As for the young career woman who can fly wherever she likes - I find that to be a bit of hyperbole, but nevertheless - my point was that this 35-year-old woman who is doing well, has the exact same reproductive rights as the young/uneducated/poverty-stricken woman we all like to think about.

Even if she could jet off wherever she wants — she shouldn’t have to. Every woman should have exactly the same reproductive rights, no matter who or where she is at the moment she gets pregnant - without regard to age, level of education, financial situation, etc.

At six weeks or 16.

If we focus our support on the obvious situations, but ignore the more likely, then it’s easy to forget, once again, that all women have the same reproductive rights. Why they want/need an abortion is nobody’s business, and if we get caught up in that we lose sight of the main point.

BTW, Greger, 35 is young, yes. I was thinking in terms of reproductive years, in which case 35 is mid-to-late middle age.

Last edited by Mellowicious; 09/16/21 01:58 PM.

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all women have the same reproductive rights. Why they want/need an abortion is nobody’s business

Like I said...there are a million stories and none of them are any of my business.

A wise woman once said: "I don't know nuthin' 'bout birthin' babies."

And I don't care one way or the other whether the average baby lives or dies.

I care very much about the women who will be saddled with an unwanted pregnancy. Regardless of their circumstances. (which are none of my business)


Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...
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