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RoundTable For Fall 2021
by TatumAH - 10/22/21 03:47 AM
A Question of Culture
by pdx rick - 10/22/21 02:57 AM
What % of humanity is batsh!t crazy?
by pdx rick - 10/22/21 02:32 AM
Le Shrooms
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Why and How can they?
by logtroll - 10/22/21 01:16 AM
A Fungus Amungus
by TatumAH - 10/21/21 07:02 PM
Carbon Sequestration
by TatumAH - 10/21/21 06:02 PM
Winning
by perotista - 10/21/21 05:22 PM
Where did this car thing start?
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Mountain Meadows Massacre
by Mellowicious - 10/20/21 02:41 AM
Divorce: American Style
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Who killed General Colin Powell?
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Gerrymandering
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A Musical Quiz
by TatumAH - 10/18/21 09:01 PM
What about the latest Catholic Church fiasco in France?
by pondering_it_all - 10/18/21 08:35 PM
Southwest, American among Texas businesses defying governor
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Biden Administration Threads not in Current Topics
by Jeffery J. Haas - 10/18/21 03:10 AM
Arizona Audit/Recount 2020 election
by rporter314 - 10/16/21 05:23 PM
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I couldn’t either; I had kinda pinned my hopes on you…


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Even humans could have remained non-destructive if they had remained in their original habitat.

If they had remained tribal nomads occupying the equatorial temperate zones.

Gaia provides enough for all to have everything they need.

Any species can become destructive if some natural or unnatural occurrence upsets the balance...primarily its food source. It's the old dinosaur and meteor story. But over time nature will always find balance. When a species becomes destructive it will eventually destroy itself.
Disease, starvation, decline, and eventual extinction.

The most destructive trait any species can have is the tendency to overbreed. That seems to be what they mean when any species becomes "destructive".

In answer to your query, Jules, the Lionfish


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Originally Posted by Greger
When a species becomes destructive it will eventually destroy itself.
Disease, starvation, decline, and eventual extinction

That sounds right, but I’m not finding examples. (Invasive species don’t destroy their own environment, or habitat - they destroy someone else’s.) So - what species are we aware of that has become so destructive of its own environment that it is destroying itself, or already has?

Nice try on the lion fish and I’m aware of the problems there but, again, it’s invasive. It might not be nearly so bad when it’s at home. (Actually, by your definition, humans are invasive species too.)

Here’s what’s hanging me up. It seems to me that evolution hasn’t made a whole lot of one-offs. Some, yes, but not a lot.

So I find it difficult to believe that human beings are the only species on earth that can be so destructive of their own habitat; there ought to be some knowledge somewhere of another species, most likely extinct, who followed this path. If humans are the only ones -ever - to do so, are we even seeing the whole story?

It seems to me one more way we try to set humans above (or below) others, as we used to think we were the only species with language (false) or the only tool-users (also false.) I’m just ruminating.

Me, I agree with George Carlin, when he said “Don’t worry about the planet; the planet will be fine. We’re fu**ed, but the planet will be fine.”

Sorry. My neighbors must have the day off; still getting a lot of second-hand smoke grin


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Originally Posted by Greger
When a species becomes destructive it will eventually destroy itself.
Disease, starvation, decline, and eventual extinction.

Those effects are localized, however, and not global. Not sure that extinction is a common result - but dramatic population decline for a period of time until balance is restored is.


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My smoke ain't second-hand.

Lionfish are funny. They don't mean to invade anybody's territory. They are in their natural habitat doing what they naturally do. They aren't so much invasive as they were spread naturally by the movements of another species. Much as a cocklebur might stick to a bird and travel 1000 miles.

Unless it all falls back on that one species we know to be destructive and invasive, but which is also off limits.

Birds and frogs are destructive to insects, insects destructive to crops, crops destructive to natural vegetation. In the end it all balances out.

Are coyotes destructive? Rodents and squirrels? Termites? Fungi?

Seems like we only label something destructive when it starts tearing up our sh*t


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Actually there are all sorts of bacteria that will reproduce until they poison themselves into extinction, but those are generally in monocultures like petri dishes. Once you get up to more complex animals, evolution has supplied them with mechanisms to limit their population density. Those that did not have those traits became extinct. That's how evolution works.


We're flying electric helicopters on Mars yet you can't turn on your clothes dryer in Texas. That's because scientists are in charge of Mars, and Republicans are in charge of Texas.
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Gregor, oddity here - I looked up lion fish in several places, and they all referred to them as invasive, originating in the Indo-Pacific. Do you know how they got to Florida (I don’t), why do you consider them non-invasive?


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Fish tanks in cruise ship fern bars?


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OK, well I was checking up on an evolution question I came upon the following information that’s sort of helps me get where I was going, or at least define my target.

lThere are five major causes of extinction: habitat loss, and introduced species, pollution, population growth, and over consumption.”

Yes, but every article I’ve come across is human-centric - that it is our overconsumption, pollution, population growth, and habitat that cause extinction in other species.

We are only one of millions of species. How can it be that we are the only one so destructive, both of ourselves and others? It’s like winning a backwards lottery.


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Originally Posted by Mellowicious
OK, well I was checking up on an evolution question I came upon the following information that’s sort of helps me get where I was going, or at least define my target.

lThere are five major causes of extinction: habitat loss, and introduced species, pollution, population growth, and over consumption.”
Humans may be the only species that has the means and the desire to thwart evolution - at least for a time. Unfortunately, most (if not all) of our strategies only defer the beneficial evolutionary culling for the improvement of our kind that would otherwise result in greater intelligence, enhanced co-existence, elevated understanding (acceptance?) of our place in the world. With a nod back to the "batshiit crazy" topic, and the apparent teetering on the edge of environmental and societal collapse that we are witnessing (with not much in the way of a rational plan to correct), I'd say that the Law of Cumulative Effects is about to shift our paradigm (tongue in cheek).

It's like being trapped in the back seat of a car being driven cross country by Hunter S. Thompson!



You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
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