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More of the same? Same old same old, Yawn? What gets me is the stuff seems to go on and on forever with no end nor resolution in sight. Anyone have any bright ideas?


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Considering they have to take a vow of celibacy anyway, maybe they should just have them turn in their testicles before ordination as priests. Just a thought. Or they could just issue them all sex dolls and require daily use. There is a fundamental problem telling men to never have sex. It's just not human nature. Like playing Whack-A-Mole with sexuality. You suppress it here and it pops up there.

I actually believe the celibacy vow attracts men who feel the need to suppress their sexuality. So there is strong selection for pedophiles. Used to be mostly selection for gay men, but they are much more accepted now so not so much these days. Such men didn't go into the priesthood so they can molest children: They did it to avoid sex altogether, but that almost always fails.

Last edited by pondering_it_all; 10/06/21 11:38 PM.

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Maybe the Pope should issue an encyclical declaring that Whack-a-Pole (in delicti privatum) is not a sin?


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Bright ideas?
How about.....so many religious folks don't put a lot of importance on that sort of thing. Boys will be boys....even priests.

I don't get it either. So many christians love DT despite (or in many cases because of, gasp) his raunchy life. He can grab um by the you know what, he can hang out with child sex trafficker, pay off hookers, marry a porn star.
Envy?

I don't know why it doesn't stop and no action seems to be taken.



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Originally Posted by logtroll
Maybe the Pope should issue an encyclical declaring that Whack-a-Pole (in delicti privatum) is not a sin?
That's essentially what seems to be already.



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Originally Posted by olyve
Bright ideas?...
I don't know why it doesn't stop and no action seems to be taken.
How's about teaching them to dance in the rain?



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I am dancing and singing and deranged.

Good one Logrythrm!


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Home, home on de ranged...


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So let me ask anyone out there this. If God didn’t want men to be attracted to women why did He (in his infinite wisdom) make them so attractive? With all of their curves, and their wonderful eyes, and their soft skin and beautiful hair?

One can insert man-to-man desire here also. Help me here Rick!

Yet the Catholic Church seems to want to suppress those desires. What in JC Christ’s name is wrong with it? Although as most of us know it all came down to property rights because back in the day the Catholic priests could— and did own—church property blah blah blah. No need for “issue” as issue could then cause a property rights problem for the property owning church.


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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
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Dear god, I think the moderators should step in and spray for pests.

Those were sincere thoughts about all the abuse.

Now you're making fun of my by line?
Tweet tweet... that's an old by line but still very appropriate for me and my adventure And strive for life.



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I seem to be missing something here. What is it olyve? En serio.


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The thing that I find so sinful here regarding the Catholic Church is that they are in positions of power. Positions of power over the parents and positions of power over the children. And so they are allowed to bend the rules to their favor. In this case the favor and power of being able to abuse children with impunity. If there is any sin on earth…I consider that to be the biggest one of them all.

I am surprised that the Catholic Church can still exist. But this sort of abuse goes on anywhere and everywhere in various institutions where a group of men, mostly, have control over other less powerful human beings. And it is a scenario always fraught with peril.


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Originally Posted by olyve
Now you're making fun of my by line?
Tweet tweet... that's an old by line but still very appropriate for me and my adventure And strive for life.
My bad for seeming to make fun of your byline - not my intent. Given the crazy circumstances engendered by the batsh!t crazy religiosity that gives rise to extended perversity, I tend to whimsical “solutions” that could be diversions from the dark warpages of their natural sexual drives. If only they could dance in the rain in lieu of molesting little boys…

Sadly, as long as the bizarre delusions of their religion exist, there is little we can do about it.


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Originally Posted by Ken Condon
More of the same? Same old same old, Yawn? What gets me is the stuff seems to go on and on forever with no end nor resolution in sight. Anyone have any bright ideas?

It is as it ever has been. Same old same old. We are animals even if we pretend to be something special.

But they are starting to be held accountable now.

It speaks well for society.

But this kind of crap goes on everywhere all the time and always has. In churches, in schools, in the workplace, in politics. It's especially common among the rich, the poor, and the middle classes.


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Quote
why did He (in his infinite wisdom) make them so attractive?

That's dangerously close to pedophiles blaming sexy children for their crimes.

My point of view says if you can't be polite and keep it in your pants until it is invited out, then the offending parts need to be removed. We do this all the time with our pets.


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Originally Posted by logtroll
Originally Posted by olyve
Now you're making fun of my by line?
Tweet tweet... that's an old by line but still very appropriate for me and my adventure And strive for life.
My bad for seeming to make fun of your byline - not my intent. Given the crazy circumstances engendered by the batsh!t crazy religiosity that gives rise to extended perversity, I tend to whimsical “solutions” that could be diversions from the dark warpages of their natural sexual drives. If only they could dance in the rain in lieu of molesting little boys…
No, Logs. MY bad.
Holy moly.
I didn't mean to come off sounding so uptight. I was being silly trying to make a joke. Sometimes I don't do that very well...iyiyi.

I actually love your whimsical ponderings (lol) and was happy I could provide some fodder for your musings.
(there how about that?)



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Girls have always been mean to me... cry

Boys, too, come to think of it. I wonder where I put that Tupperware full of worms?


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Originally Posted by logtroll
Girls have always been mean to me... cry

Boys, too, come to think of it. I wonder where I put that Tupperware full of worms?
Hahahaha....


Sorry for the off subject here but he MADE me do it.

My mama used to sing that to me when I had the "can't help its" oh poor me.

Last edited by olyve; 10/07/21 02:18 PM.


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I think flaying might be an apt punishment for those priests.I suspect it was a useful punishment during the Inquisition.

And if that is considered to be too harsh - give them basic medical training and send them to a modern-day leper colony. Villages struck by Ebola, maybe. The worst of the Covid infections. Have them work with the Untouchables in India.


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No one thinks this vow of celibacy nonsense has anything to do with it? Priests and nuns who agree to such are probably going to be problematic to begin with.


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Nah. Sending them some place so that they can be of "use" and "help" other people sounds like too much temptations to me.

How about treat um like the Scarlet Woman and stone them to death.
Just sayin...



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Originally Posted by Ken Condon
No one thinks this vow of celibacy nonsense has anything to do with it? Priests and nuns who agree to such are probably going to be problematic to begin with.
Here here, Ken. I couldn't agree with you more. What's that have to do with anything?
Everybody has god given "urges" , right? (sarcasm).

Same with telling youngsters fresh from puberty that the only thing for them is abstinence. Cripe.



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I suspect that we are observing the end of the Roman Catholic Church. I came to that conclusion when they announced that the pope was giving some known offenders back their jobs because he is out of priests. He is out of priests because they have decided, in the face of all their competition, to disallow married or female priests. Oh, there are exceptions - preachers from other religions who convert can bring their wives and children with them.

Its kindofa shame and they will diddle around for a long time but, eventually, they will have to start selling stuff off which will really signal the end.

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Originally Posted by olyve
How about treat um like the Scarlet Woman and stone them to death.
Just sayin...


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So, this crowd appears to be totally in favor of the death penalty, vigilante justice, and outright torture for something that surely must be classified as a mental disorder.

I've noticed that Republicans have also come down pretty hard on pedophiles in recent years. It's good to see the two sides agreeing on something! The torture and killing of anyone who happens to cross a certain line. A line that has moved around quite a bit over the years and isn't universally accepted. Once those folks are gone we'll find another line and torture and kill all of those who cross that one...and then...

My dog isn't neutered. He was never aggressive and never needed to be. I think proper sex education might go a long way towards reducing a lot of sex crimes. And part of that education would be the sure and certain knowledge that your balls would be removed after three offenses.


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Greger, you may be right; flaying - although not to death, min you - may be too harsh. And it may not be best for the guilty priests, but for the hierarchy to which they report.

Mental illness or not, I can guarantee those guilty priests knew that what they were doing was wrong - after all, these are men trained to recognize “sin,” to confess it, and to refrain from sinning again. They are steeped in it. And I can guarantee that these crimes were not committed in complete secrecy. Someone knew - a. monsignor, a bishop, an archbishop - someone knew and someone hid their crimes.

I don’t like priests, which can be difficult because my nephew is one. I don’t see him very often, and when I do, it’s a gingery meeting. He knows I’m an atheists, and I refuse to call him “father.” Still, I try to be happy that he followed his childhood dream - even though it was to become a priest. The church breeds a patronizing attitude into most of its priests and I despise that. I’ve had great experience with nuns, mostly as professors.Priests? No. Priests don’t take the same vows nuns do; I think they’d be better off if they did.


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Originally Posted by Mellowicious
…I refuse to call him “father.”
“Forgive me nephew, for I have sinned…” It has a fulsome mouth to it, and is phonetically softer.

I like it!


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And I am long past asking the Catholic Church, or any of its representatives, to forgive me for anything, thank you very much.


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Not even satirically?


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Not even satirically.


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Not even to whistle and go fishin’ in Heaven?



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John “fuggin A” Prine. So I was living in Corvallis and had hooked up with my later to be wife Martha. She came running back to the apartment with John Prine‘s second album. I had never heard of him before. She said “Ken you have to listen to this!” So of course we fired it
up and I remember thinking that “damn this guy sounds cornball!” But I kept listening and the music kept growing on me. And then I came to realize what an absolute genius he was.

Subsequently we heard him several times live after that including four times where he played together with Steve Goodman as a duet. Those concerts were memorable and amazing. They weren’t so much concerts as get together‘s in a tavern that was very intimate. Shortly before Goodman died he was in Seattle getting cancer treatment at the Fred Hutchison cancer center. He showed up on stage bald without a hair on his head. Someone in the audience shout it out “Hey Steve….great haircut.” Goodman in his total humility responded “thank you” with a smile. He died two weeks after that. I am sure that guy from the audience later felt totally diminished for his very insensitive and rediculous remark.

And I shall never forget that scene either.


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Martha and I both knew Goodman was sick at the time. Our neighbor and friend was a trauma nurse at Harbor View hospital in Seattle. He was aware that Goodman was around the area getting cancer treatment and told us so, so we both knew Goodman was very sick and under cancer treatment when we saw that last concert with him together with John Prine.

That’s what made that remark all the more biting and
painful.


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Originally Posted by Greger
I've noticed that Republicans have also come down pretty hard on pedophiles in recent years..
Matt Gaetz didn't get the memo. coffee


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Originally Posted by Greger
So, this crowd appears to be totally in favor of the death penalty, vigilante justice, and outright torture for something that surely must be classified as a mental disorder.

I've noticed that Republicans have also come down pretty hard on pedophiles in recent years. It's good to see the two sides agreeing on something! The torture and killing of anyone who happens to cross a certain line. A line that has moved around quite a bit over the years and isn't universally accepted. Once those folks are gone we'll find another line and torture and kill all of those who cross that one...and then...

My dog isn't neutered. He was never aggressive and never needed to be. I think proper sex education might go a long way towards reducing a lot of sex crimes. And part of that education would be the sure and certain knowledge that your balls would be removed after three offenses.
Well alright. Greger, you certainly are calling us out on our ""gotcha" moment, all this bantering talk of vigilante justice....stoning and flaying.
And against acts of mental illness at that.

I am against the death penalty so I spoke frivolously. Sorry. I was more focused on the hypocrisy of how a promiscuous woman (with adult men) is treated versus men of the cloth who prey on little boys.
And nobody in that organization is ever held responsible and nothing changes.
Kind of the point of this thread.



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Originally Posted by olyve
... men of the cloth who prey on little boys.
Eureka! I think you may have inadvertantly identified the root of the problem - it's a simple error in spelling. It goes without saying that Catholic priests are insane, due to the twin facts that they dedicate their lives to a bunch of Mumbo-Jumbo (that's really big Mumbo) and they think of themselves as fathers, even though they have taken an oath to not be fathers. Now there is evidence that they are very poor spellers, mistakenly conflating praying with preying... it's so simple!

Does anyone have the Pope's email address?


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Some folks imagine the protestants are somehow superior and there is no sexual predation among them. I think you will find this not to be completely true. Just picking Catholics isn't really fair.

Pedophilia seems to be a fairly widespread phenomenon within the human race and one that's been swept under the rug for millennia. It's always met with panic and calls for torture and death.

They say there's no cure...but there is.


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Yes this phenomenon is present in situations where one group (usually men) have power over others less powerful. Which opens itself to many scenarios. But as far a religious institutions go I am pretty sure it has manifested itself more in the Catholic Church than others, mainly exacerbated by the celibacy edict.

In the late 1980’s to early 1990’s we had a Mexican couple living with us who were getting their graduate degrees at Oregon State U. Abel told me that the majority of Mexican priests in his area seemed to all have “cousins” cool living with them. They were just trying to help their poor relatives I suppose. And that is also I reason I learned to speak Spanish so well.

Meanwhile:

Quote
They say there's no cure...but there is.

What might that be? Castration or lobotomy?


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But as far as religious institutions go I am pretty sure it has manifested itself more in the Catholic Church than others, mainly exacerbated by the celibacy edict.

Concur. I just wanted to make it clear that they aren't the only ones getting handsy with the kids.

I see it as a widespread problem that is either getting worse or has always been this rampant and we are only now learning about it. No one ever molested me as a kid, but my little sister was raped by a neighbor boy. My baby brother is nine years younger and he tells me there were half a dozen just in the neighborhood by then who were a little too touchy-feely.

Maybe a lot of those molested boys go into the clergy because they enjoyed it.

Human sexuality is something we've only scratched the surface of.


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Originally Posted by greger
Maybe a lot of those molested boys go into the clergy because they enjoyed it.

Human sexuality is something we've only scratched the surface of.

Sorry, Greger, but that is a little too close to blaming the victim for my taste. Sex between a child and a person of power is not consensual. You can’t say “yes” if you don’t have the power to say “no.”
You seem to refer, maybe, to an older child but I haven’t seen much info on the age of the victims(and truly, I don’t want to.


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It must always remain a line that cannot be crossed.

But given that children never have any power at all makes it almost always a case of a man in power taking advantage of someone weaker. Even if it's just an older boy who also has no power of consent.

Boys have been getting buggered by bigger boys since time immemorial. It's a thing. It's probably never going to change.

Some of them might join the clergy because that's where they know the buggering is going on.

It seems the whole game is coming unraveled in this particularly woke point in history where most children have parents who might take them seriously when they say the priest had his hand down their pants.

We just had two female teachers arrested in south Florida for banging schoolboys 14 and 15 years old. It's a little different when women rape boys and few ever call for their death or torture.

Everybody knows it's jailbait. Some just can't resist.


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Originally Posted by Greger
It must always remain a line that cannot be crossed.

But given that children never have any power at all makes it almost always a case of a man in power taking advantage of someone weaker. Even if it's just an older boy who also has no power of consent.
[quote]

Which may be one of the reasons it’s taboo - who knows.

[quote=greger]
Boys have been getting buggered by bigger boys since time immemorial. It's a thing. It's probably never going to change.

Oh, but it can change over years. I’m pretty sure that if it’s not a biological imperative, it can change. I also know that it’s aberrant behavior in that it’s practiced by a very small portion of the population.

Originally Posted by greger
It's a little different when women rape boys and few ever call for their death or torture.

It’s different, of course, because sex (m/f) has been considered, without question, a “boon” for males. With that viewpoint the teachers were giving their students a gift to be proud of. That outlook is damaging to men as well as women. Give sexual experience the same value for men as for women and life will be simpler.


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Can a woman "rape" a male? Isn't rape unwilling penetration? I submit that you cannot rape the willing.

Hmm


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I was wondering the same thing myself Rick. Why didn’t I have female teachers such as those when I was growing up? I would have submitted to such abuse and taken it like a man.

So to speak.


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Kids can't legally agree to have sex. And grownups ought to know better.

I think in this enlightened age 16 might be a more sensible "age of consent".

Latins have the Quinceañera, I just passed by a lovely one at the park! Girls in white satin, boys all in black, the birthday girl in an enormous gown, and the longest freaking Cadilac Escalade you ever saw!

Trouble is...there are too many male predators already and that would only encourage them.

Men just really can't be trusted at all. Maybe a few women too.


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Gregor, at least in my state, if both participants are under 18, statutory rape does not apply. And just as a side note, I don’t believe a quinceanera is considered to be any sort of sexual emancipation.

Last edited by Mellowicious; 10/09/21 09:10 PM.

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Originally Posted by Ken Condon
Why didn’t I have female teachers such as those when I was growing up?
Brings back a memory with a shocking fresh interpretation. When I was in 10th grade English class, we had a teacher who was very personable and outgoing, and pretty cute for an old woman of 22. One day we were watching a slide show about ancient Greece, or something, and I was whispering wisecracks to the girl in the desk in front of me (who I happened to have a crush on...). She got to giggling so much that she got the hiccups - Teach flipped on the lights and in an extremely offended voice says, "Logtroll! What are you DOING!!" As it happens, I was generally the most quiet, well-behaved, top shelf student, so some measure of surprise from Teach was to be expected, but I now realize I had always been a bit puzzled at her emotional intensity - which I now in my aged time recognize as jealousy. I do believe ol' Teach had a crush on yours truly!

Not that it would have made any difference as I was such a shy, line-toeing geek that I would have run away from any advances. But now that you all have got me reminiscing, I vaguely recall having some Teach fantasies after the little hiccup episode...


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Sorry if this might be a thread buster but it seemed appropriate.

So to speak:



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I would be surprised if a male student experienced that same level of "emotional trauma" that a a female student would if seduced by an adult. I would be surprised if the male student suffered any trauma at all. Seriously. Hmm


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Maybe an aneurism...


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I've always heard about Catholic school, "There's Nun better!"


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re: Van Halen's Hot For Teacher

There are two early 80s song that come to mind:

The Police Don't Stand Too Close whose lyrics about a young teacher having a crush on his student wasn't exactly boycotted and shunned the world over as evident by the success of its worldwide chart rankings at the time:

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/image...aa5a5ebb033a892fcc9516b8d79a9e2d6c07.png

...and then there's Oingo Boingo's I like Little Girls released in 1981 on A&M Records (Herb Albert's label) never charted anywhere in the world, but was released for airplay. I heard it on KROQ in Los Angeles many, many times.


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Kind of back to topic...

Is this male/underage female, female/underage male, male/underage male, female/underage female ethical taboo asymmetry cultural, or biological?

Hmm


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While we're at it, how does the apparent difference in the effect of a man raping a woman/girl compare to the effect of a woman raping a man/boy?


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From a cultural standpoint, if we look at the chart successor a record of a young teacher fighting feelings for his underaged female student vs the global outrage of a priest molesting a young boy, the thought of older male / young girl does not invoke nearly the same outrage as an older male / young boy does.

Hmm


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My own various takes are these:

I have always been horrified at the though of a man raping a woman - if that's cultural, it is persistent.

I used to be horrified by gay sex in either direction, but no more - cultural.

I really can't envision a woman raping a man (or boy), so I guess that's not cultural?

The idea of anybody forcing sex on someone who is not willing is abhorrent. All I know is that my equipment would not be functional in such a scenario.


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Originally Posted by pdx rick
...... the thought of older male / young girl does not invoke nearly the same outrage as an older male / young boy does.
Not true for me. They seem the same.


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Originally Posted by logtroll
The idea of anybody forcing sex on someone who is not willing is abhorrent..
Bow

What if it is mutual between the teen and adult? Greger says that teens can't give permission. I disagree.

Hmm


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Originally Posted by pdx rick
What if it is mutual between the teen and adult? Greger says that teens can't give permission. I disagree.
Me too. I was in the process of being sexually "molested" once by a 12 or 13 year-old girl while I was nearly passed out at a wedding reception party (the bride was her auntie and the father of the bride, her grandfather, coerced me into sharing a bit too much Fish House Punch against my wishes). In my semi-dream state I thought I was getting it on with her mother, but fortunately the bride pulled her niece off of me a bit prior to the nick of time. Being before cell phones, auntie, at whose Montana ranch I was the handyman (I think there are songs about that) screened all calls for me from her horny niece (back in California) for several weeks. I assume the little rapist found a new mark.


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Greger said that teens can't legally consent to having sex. It has nothing to do with them wanting it or not it's against the law.

Jules...Quincenera is when a girl becomes a woman.

When she's old enough to marry and old enough to breed(in an entirely monogamous Catholic sanctioned marriage performed by the same priest who may have fondled both bride and groom)


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Now….that last comment of yours is awesome Gregor.


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Greger say..”Ken cannot find appropriate emoji to express appropriate reaction” to previous comments. I thought it would be easy but it shant.

Please raise your hand if you are familiar with such a conjugation of a certain adverb.……shall not.

Is that right Jules? Is shall not an adverb? Just trying to remember my rudimentary verb and or word conjugations from way back when.


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Originally Posted by Greger
Greger said that teens can't legally consent to having sex. It has nothing to do with them wanting it or not it's against the law.

Not here. Florida law may be different. In Nebraska, sex between two minors is not a basis for statutory rape. Age of consent is 16.

Quote
Jules...Quincenera is when a girl becomes a woman.

Yes, Greger, I am aware of that. I’m also aware that a quince is held at the age of 15. I also know that a quinceanera is not a mark of sexual freedom. If anything, strictures against sexual activity become much stronger at this point, as unwanted pregnancies can be disastrous.

Last edited by Mellowicious; 10/10/21 03:53 AM.

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Originally Posted by Ken Condon
Greger say..”Ken cannot find appropriate emoji to express appropriate reaction” to previous comments. I thought it would be easy but it shant.

Please raise your hand if you are familiar with such a conjugation of a certain adverb.……shall not.

No idea whatsoever; I was never taught grammar (beyond basic sentence diagramming) that I can remember. You’ll need to find your own grammar muse.

For what it’s worth, my Scottish ex used “shan’t” very occasionally and even, occasionally, “amn’t.” But then he could be something of a prig.


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I shan’t rest in peace until I truly grok the meaning of life.

Looks like I shall be awake for awhile….


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Originally Posted by Ken Condon
I shan’t rest in peace until I truly grok the meaning of life.

Looks like I shall be awake for awhile….
Dateline: sometime in the future
Location: Mt. Ever Rest Cemetery
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RIP Ken-san Condon. People are saying he never slept a wink until the bitter end (nautical term). Most assumed he must have finally grokked life as he now rests in peace. It is a logical conclusion.


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Looks like I missed a number of posts because my phone was turned off, so I’m playing a bit of catch-up.

This is an updated definition of rape from the justice department as of January 21, 2012. The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.“

There are several for the exclamations explanations of consent. I’m attaching a link.

https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/blog/updated-definition-rape

Last edited by Mellowicious; 10/10/21 04:17 PM.

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Another site, where you can compare consent laws between any two states.

https://apps.rainn.org/policy/compare.cfm


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So by the 2012 definition of rape, a woman cannot rape a man. Rape involves the sexual gratification of the perp by penetration and there would be no sexual gratification for a female perp to sexually assault a man's anus with an object.

Hmm


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Now, can some claim a woman using a man's obvious excitement for her benefit, be considered rape? Can an unwilling male be raped, even if his organ is saying yes, and the woman uses it as a device for self-gratification?

There is such a scenario in the Bible of all places when Lot's two daughters "raped" their own drunk father in a cave: Genesis 19:30-35


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Rick - the first scenario is clearly defined in the link I provided. And all kinds of unlikely things are described in the Bible; we don’t feel the need to legislate arks.

Last edited by Mellowicious; 10/10/21 07:03 PM.

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“Rick - there is no mention in the DOJ definition of sexual gratification.


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My bad. My assumption that sexual gratification was one of the vehicles which produced samples to collect evidence from the victim. Hmm


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Let me see if I can explain what I’m thinking.

This thread started with the report of over 200,000 children - 80% of them boys - molested since 1950 by men in positions of trust - in fact, men in positions of authority unquestionable by Catholic children. Your - that is, most of you - reacted with “wink wink nudge nudge” questions about whether or not the children liked it. They must have, or why didn’t they report it?

And reactions like that are a very good reason nothing was done.

While we’re talking about reporting it, let me tell you a story. When I-was in my early 20s I administered a federal grant at a Catholic college. Our primary grant authority (president of another college) called a probable fraud to my attention, and suggested I quit my job before I ended up being hit with federal charges and possible prison time.

I couldn’t afford to quit my job.I went to a nun who had previously held my job. She confirmed what I already knew - I had to go to the bishop, who oversaw the college.

I was a pretty non-active Catholic by then, but this man was a) physically huge, and b) a bishop? I had never spoken to a church official at that level before. I was, I think, 24 years old.

His response to my story and and accompanying proof was this: Did I thInk had always done my best in my job?

Facing him was perhaps the hardest thing I had done in my life, and his answer turned me away from the church permanently, followed Hartley after by my “conversion” to atheism.

I have no idea what those kids, those young men, by now many of them old men - went through - but they deserve much better than the sniggering “the6 probably liked it” they’re getting here.

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There was a comment a while back that sex with young people has always been viewed as a crime or a sign of mental illness, but that is just not true at all. If you look at the age of consent history of various states in the US, most set that at 10-12 up until the twentieth century. Then it was gradually moved up to higher and higher ages as women became more powerful politically, stopping at 16-18 in various states. Georgia and Hawaii actually had it set at 14 until 1995 and 2001, respectively.

Many people assume that the AOC is 18 and universal, just because any sexual photography or video of minors under 18 is considered child pornography by the feds, even if a 17 year old photographs themselves and keeps the photos private.

There is a recurrent claim that "children under XX can't consent because their brain is undeveloped", but the IQ equation (mental age / physical age) stops the physical age term at 15 because that's when the human brain is fully developed. There is proof of that, in that kid's IQs don't change if you measure it every year from age 10 to age 20. So there is some scientific justification for a universal AOC of 15. (Italy and Germany set it at 14.) And "near age exceptions" for minors in a relationship.

I think the real problem is not young people having sex. The real problem is predatory men and teens taking advantage of a power imbalance to compel unwanted sex with anybody of any age. I have some pretty intense personal experience with this because my father did some pretty nasty stuff to my sister, from age 7 to age 13. He was a charming, PhD-educated, sociopath, who had her convinced "he knew everything" and could do no wrong. At 10 years old (when I found out) I instantly realized she was brainwashed. She spilled the beans shortly after that when she asked her sex-ed teacher if you could get pregnant from anal sex. Our father was in custody within a day, and spent a while in the state prison for sex offenders. That was so long ago they considered diddling your own daughter as less offensive than diddling somebody else's, so he was not in prison for very long. These days he would have been in there for life..

My point here is that the abuse of power imbalance was far worse than the sex. She actually told me at the time that the sex was very enjoyable! So I guess he was very good at doing what he did without hurting her physically. But he really screwed her up mentally.


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Now you've piqued my interest Mellow. What happened with the fraud?

Hmm


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Nothing, so far as I know. I made up an ability to “freeze the funds,” and doing so caused my supervisors to regretfully let me go (fortunately, into a non-grant position,) thereby saving my ass from an audit. I did manage to stop the attempted fraud, but what happened afterwards, I don’t know.


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That’s an amazing and very personal and disturbing story PIA. That cannot have been easy sharing it with us.


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Quote
School Teacher Had Sexual Relationship with 15-Year-Old Boy and Claimed to Be Pregnant: Police

A school teacher allegedly abused a 15-year-old former student, say cops in Doral, Florida, according to a Miami Herald report. Heiry Calvi, 41, told a detective she was pregnant, said police spokesman Rey Valdes. She allegedly did not specify how many months she had been pregnant, nor did she identify the father.

Calvi is a teacher at John I. Smith K-8 Center, police said. It shares a campus with J.C. Bermudez Sr. High School, where a student allegedly showed off a video of him and Calvi having illicit relations.

- Law & Crime.com
This might be one of those that Greger told us about.


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Originally Posted by pondering_it_all
My point here is that the abuse of power imbalance was far worse than the sex. She actually told me at the time that the sex was very enjoyable! So I guess he was very good at doing what he did without hurting her physically. But he really screwed her up mentally.
No. She didn't know what the power imbalance was at the time. She was [censored] up by the sex. She didn't "enjoy it", she was not mature enough to know what that means. Her body or her mind.
Let's just leave it at that.
I'm so sorry that happened to her.

Sorry. The dismissive talk bugs me.
I'm familiar with wink and a nod too in my own relatives.



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It's easy to talk about it now that they are both dead. So is my step-mother, so I'm the last person still standing who had any part in it. I don't have to be concerned about hurting anybody's feelings or retraumatizing them. She told me directly that she enjoyed the sex, and I was an avid masturbator myself before that by age 10, so I didn't doubt her. Many girls are masturbators before 10, without being molested by anyone. It's just something they like, and they do it just for that reason. Some girls don't and their discovery of their sexual nature may happen many years later. That's in the range of normal human behavior. Sex really doesn't carry all the emotional baggage we experience, for young kids.

I didn't see her for several years after that, since our step-mother had a horrible unsympathetic jealous reaction and sent her into foster care. Effectively, mom blamed the victim! That's the start of my life-long disillusionment with my step-mother. But after he got out of prison, mom still divorced dad when my little sister was 7, just to get my little sister out of there. I left home at 17, and they immediately moved out. I suppose my presence in the house made my step-mother feel more secure about dad not molesting my little sister, but I never thought that was very smart myself.

I did interact with my sister later, when she attended the college my dad used to teach at. She had some therapy, and was doing well. Had normal relationships with boyfriends, and married a great fellow I just saw on Friday at their younger daughter's wedding. I believed what she had to say about it then and later as an adult. If some choose not to believe her, that says more about them than her. She was very well-centered and stabile as an adult, was a great wife and mother, and lived a peaceful and comfortable life. She was brilliant, too, and worked for the navy as a computer programmer before she married. Cancer took her much too soon, but she did get to see grandchildren of her older daughter.


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What I am about to write, only Scout knew as she was the only person I ever told...and it was in person as one of our many get-togethers.

On the lyrics thread, I alluded to being a teen and having a 27 year old boyfriend. I was 17, 17-1/2 to be exact. My parents didn't know, because my mom would have been all over the police to do something about it.

Yes, I knew my b/f could get into trouble, therefore I kept silent to protect him.

But...there was one other, when I was in eighth grade and I was 13-1/2. That too was kept from my parents because I knew that one would have gotten the guy in serious trouble. He was actually known to my family and I am the one who presented the relationship to my parents of having a "big brother." THAT was my idea so that I could spend more time with him.

I am the one started things off, because I knew I was gay. I didn't even have an inkling that he was gay. In fact, he was seeing some women. The guy was exactly the type of guy I liked: facial hair, hairy chest. (My taste in men has never changed my entire life). He too was 27 at the time. Yes there was a 14 year age difference.

I was not coerced, I was not forced, in fact, it was truly the other way around. I seduced him. I was the aggressor.

Today, I sometimes think about my two relationships from the guys perspective, and I could never have a relationship with a teen. First off, they're annoying. Secondly, they do not have masculine features to speak of. Some gays will do anyone. I am actually very picky and have always been very picky about who I choose as a partner. I'd rather be by myself, than to settle.

My point in sharing this is from the perspective of a teen who knew exactly what was up, and thought of way of getting what he wanted and to continue getting what he wanted, AND, I understood the legal consequences for my partner.

Now, if I was coerced, all I would have done is tell my mom, and she would have had the police all over the guy like white on rice. But, I did not have those types of relationships. In fact, I once met a guy who I didn't like after I met him, and he kept calling me, and I told him, if he ever called me again, I was going to tell my parents. He never called me again.

I knew how to handle myself and steer to get what I wanted, and threaten getting my parents and the police involved to those I didn't want near me. It was always my choice and I was always in control of my situation.


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Ok, I’ve been reluctant to do this but I have to ask: can we please stop with personal stories about sex?

This is not what I believed CHB to be and there are a lot of other places on the web for this kind of thing. If this is what you all want from this site, then I am most certainly in the wrong place.


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We can always talk in the abstract, but shared stories make it real. My story was simply to tell one teens side of the story - and from I am gathering, there is a misperception that teens are always the victim - and my story was simply to share that is not always true.


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Teens are the horniest little bastards on the planet and teens have been making their own decisions since our species started living that long. Parents just try to keep them on the rails until they grow up(at about age 35) And the law just tries to prevent too much abuse(which is gonna happen anyway)

There are a lot of gray areas.

We haven't had any women in the locker room for a long time(wink wink nudge nudge)

Men are like dogs. They will get into all sorts of disgusting stuff, roll around in it and enjoy it.

Like you girls, I was a virgin until I was 18. We talked about sex but never did anything. And if we did we never told anybody. That was the best policy then and it's the best now.


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The topic of this thread is about a huge number of children in France having sexual relations with adults. Ranters posting about their own experiences gives us the opportunity to obtain insights into more aspects of this topic, so these posts are entirely appropriate for this thread. If any ranter does not want to read these posts, there are a large number of other threads they may enjoy more.

I love reading posts from all of you, and I am happy that all of you are here, but every thread may not be comfortable for every ranter. Life is messy, and everybody dies in the end. Maybe CHB should have thread ratings, so ranters can avoid threads they may find objectionable.

Last edited by pondering_it_all; 10/11/21 10:15 PM.

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Human sexuality is a topic of fraught with peril as Gregor alluded to. It has been said, or I at least have read, that in certain areas of central Asia 10% of the people contain DNA traces from Genghis Khan. Man that guy got around! I wonder what dating site he used?

OK.

So joke there…..


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Originally Posted by Ken Condon
I wonder what dating site he used?
It was called "Rape and Pillage", a 'custom and culture' app of the day.


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This thread has kinda turned a wee bit "icky"...


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I thought it turned icky when they talked about flaying and killing people.


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The whole topic is way way icky, but it's in the news and part of life. If you ignore it, it doesn't go away.


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Sometimes life is icky...mebbe a lot of times, life is icky. crazy

...it all depends on how we choose to deal with it. Hmm


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Sex really doesn't carry all the emotional baggage we experience, for young kids.

Wrong, just wrong.

Pia, not for one minute did I say that I didn't believe her. Of course I believe her. I personally know people (and relatives) that have had similar experiences with their dad or brother or uncle or grandfather.....
(Don't we all)
Those are people they don't want to "tell on". Those are people they need to justify what happened with. If there is ANY pleasure in it (7 years old and regular robust anal sex....I have trouble believing that. It's sad that she said that), they are ashamed. A girl that little is just too little to know what's going on which is all the more sad.
That still doesn't mean I don't believe her.
So ok.
Do you have any idea how disruptive it is to the family, close friends, to "spill the beans" about something like that? People don't know how to handle it and often don't want to. Their siblings, their mother, their grandmother, their sister whose husband it is. They look up to this charming man. He's funny and cool and loving.

They are often shunned and told to just get over it (see above).
Why didn't they just say no.

This thread started out about clergymen, men of god who took an oath, preying on little boys and maybe some little girls thrown in there too.
Honestly I have not researched it but just watching the news, nothing ever changes much. Nobody goes to jail.
Y'all are right....wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
That's just gross.

Passing this off as "all boys/men are lusty" is just horrible.
And it actually feels good for little girls if the guy doesn't "hurt" her.
That is wrong. They are hurt. I promise you. Maybe crippled for the rest of their lives in terms of relationships and their own children.
And oh god, their self esteem.



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Do you have any idea how disruptive it is to the family, close friends, to "spill the beans" about something like that?

Considering that I was right in the middle of it at age 10, I do know a lot more about it than anybody who didn't. Dad went to prison, and destroyed his college professor career for the rest of his life after getting out. Mom divorced him a few years later. Older sister (the victim) went into foster care for 5 years (longer than Dad's time in prison!). I was left for the next 7 years living in a much poorer family that was essentially broken, and in the later half of that living with "a sexual psychopath unlikely to benefit from treatment" (the psychologist's words at sentencing). I got the hell out of there at age 17, probably the least-damaged family member.

Of course, I don't blame my sister at all. Never did. It was 100% his fault. Her getting the authorities involved was absolutely the best thing possible, even better than him dropping dead from a heart attack. Her going into foster care was even a positive thing, because of my step-mother blaming her and the fact that she had one set of very nice foster parents.

BUT STILL: She was a perfectly normal, seemingly well-adjusted little girl and then teen during the time they were having sex. She was a Camp Fire Girl. She got excellent grades in school. She had no abnormal behavior. She had normal emotional health. She had a normal relationship with her little brother. She did tell me years later that she knew the sex was not normal, and hoped it would stop when Dad remarried my step-mother. But the fact that it didn't was not distressing enough to make her act on it for five more years.

Around this same time, I was a normal 10 year old boy. My sexual behavior was mostly solo, but not exclusively. I played "you show me your's" with my contemporaries, both male and female, and discovered that I found girls much more sexually attractive than boys. Some of those girls were quite enthusiastic, which informed me that 1) girls can enjoy sexual attention, and 2) girls are sexually developed before boys. So I was not surprised when my 13 year old sister told me she was having sexual encounters and enjoyed the physical sensations. My younger peers and I did the same thing. We didn't perform the same physical acts, simply because we didn't know about them.

This is why I felt, and still feel that the sex was not a big deal, and the psychological manipulation was much worse. Having sex with an adult was bad. Having sex with your own father was worse, though he avoided anything that could make incest babies. Having your own father brainwash you into thinking this was some "special relationship only the closest, most loving fathers and daughters shared" was worst of all: The ultimate betrayal.


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It has taken me most of two days to write this post.

This thread has weighed heavily on me. 200,000 men claimed to have been sexually abused by priests of the Catholic Church. We could have discussed what the French government role should be, what the US government’s role should be in a similar situation. We could have discussed the difficulties men and women have in coming to terms with sexual abuse; there are real differences by gender, and it’s a huge topic. Given some basic knowledge and some empathy we might even have noted the physical pain and damage and cruelty that occurs when a small body is penetrated by...anything.

But instead, the choice was to explore which young people are old enough for consensual sex. Instead, the choice was to explore whether young people enjoy being abused by older people. You chose to get your information by comparing one gay man’s positive experience to 200,000 negative ones, as though they somehow balanced, as though one can inform the other, as though they had anything at all in common.


****************

In the United States, one in every six women has experienced rape and/or attempted rape.

I know four women who were abused by their fathers or stepfathers.
I know one woman who was raped in her late teens.
I know one woman who was raped repeatedly by multiple men at the age of 14.

Those are the ones who chose to confide in me.

If you ask them, they will tell you that they did not ask for it, did not enjoy it, in some cases barely survived it.

If you ask me which one, if any, of those women was me, I won’t answer.


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Every rape, be it by strangers, step-fathers, fathers, brothers, clergy, teachers. coaches. etc. should be punished by significant prison time and lifetime sex offender registry. No excuses. No "you are just so beautiful, I couldn't stop myself". No excuses for spousal rape. The figures for the large percentage of women who have been assaulted are sickening. It makes me wonder if all men should be tested psychologically to see if they need temporary chemical castration until they can pass the test.

People do horrible things to other people, and that's not limited to men doing bad stuff to women. The perp is almost always male, and the victim is usually female, but all the other combinations do occur. We tend to lump every sexual encounter involving somebody under 18 (or 17 or 16, depending on your state) as heinous child molestation deserving hanging, flaying, or other such extreme punishment. But such interactions are all unique, and need to be considered on an individual basis. I know that's icky, and most people would just throw up their hands and say: "Hang the bastard." But we should not be prosecuting 17 year olds for production of child pornography for taking photos of themselves, and we should not be prosecuting 18 year olds for having a sexual relationship with their 17 year old girlfriend.

Regarding the situation in France, the solution is straightforward: Cancel the Statute of Limitations for sexual offences against minors, and concealing such crimes. Prosecute all offenders. Send them to prison. Compensate all the victims. Sounds like this will bankrupt the Catholic Church in France. So be it. But I doubt it's limited to the Catholic Church. But they need to look at every case individually, and dole out punishment and rewards appropriately. Buggered 50 ten year old alter boys? Life in prison and fines of everything you've got. The boys get all their medical, therapy, and education bills paid, plus pain and suffering. Fell prey to seduction by a sexually active late teen when you are a newly-minted seminary graduate? Community service and the supposed-victim gets nothing.

And I say this also based on personal experiences: My father got two years in medium-security prison for hundreds of sex acts with his own daughter. My niece's husband got 300 years for reaching into his male student's pants.

Last edited by pondering_it_all; 10/13/21 11:52 PM.

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So I guess we were on the right track when we just wanted to torture and kill them.

I have tried and failed to impart to you, Jules, just how disgusting men are. All of them.

I have daughters.


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(Just to be clear - my suggestion that the perpetrators be flayed was metaphorical. I thought it would be read that way but apparently that was not always the case.)


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One of the figures I saw was 11,000 kids in the US in 2002. The French number may rise to 330,000. You say each case needs to be examined individually. In the case of the French report I think that’s already been done. How long would it take, in the US, to research 11,000 (which I think would be a minimum) cases and take them through the legal system?

Greger, yes, you’ve told me before. I believe that generalities absolutes based on sex, like generalities absolutes based on skin color, are false. Believe what you want; you have that right, but understand that I will do the same.

Last edited by Mellowicious; 10/14/21 12:42 AM.

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Stop Greger. You're just trying to stir s***.
We dealt with that earlier in the thread.
I explained it then and apologized and that line of talk stopped right there.
You KNOW we're not serious about doing bodily harm and certainly not death. We're referring to sexual crimes against both boys and girl with so few consenquences.

And then suddenly it got off on "how much they liked it".

Pia, you said your sister was abused by her father from the age of 7 until 13. You said she enjoyed it.
Trying to make sense of your various postings about your dead sister's experience I have to admit is a little confusing to me.

Of course girls of 11/12/13 have "feelings". Puberty is a wallop. Body parts come alive. That in no way means she wasn't [censored] up by the sex with her father.
Of course it's possible to come out of the dark secret of your abuse and still have a good sex life with a partner you adore and treats you with respect and love.
You never forget though.

What in the hell does that have to do with little boys being sexually abused by men of the church.



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Originally Posted by olyve
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Sex really doesn't carry all the emotional baggage we experience, for young kids.

Wrong, just wrong..
I agree with Olyve. For me it did. In fact, I will say it was magnified. Hmm I equated sex with love.


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Originally Posted by Mellowicious
..You chose to get your information by comparing one gay man’s positive experience to 200,000 negative ones, as though they somehow balanced, as though one can inform the other, as though they had anything at all in common....
For me, I had a mom and dad who would have 1000% supported me.

Kids in Catholic school don't have that support. I've thought a lot about this thread. My situation is unique in that I had both a mom and dad who would have had my back - all I had to do was say the word. I can't imagine what it was like for catholic school boys living with their...for a lack of a better word...partners.

I lived a normal life outside of my relationships. I would say I compartmentalized, but that isn't true, because my home life and my relationship life intertwined as the first guy would have dinner with us and spend time with my family.


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Originally Posted by pdx rick
Kids in Catholic school don't have that support.

Rick, I know what you’re saying here, but I think it’s an overgeneralization. Lots of kids in Catholic schools have the same kind of supportive parents you do. They’re the lucky ones.

I’m glad your experiences were good for you.


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Stop Greger. You're just trying to stir s***.

No, I'm not. I appear to be the only one among us who believes that we are not some divine special species created in the image of GOD.

We are fecking animals, just like all the other animals. Most of us more or less have our sh*t together and are well trained. A lot don't. Roughly 30%.


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Ok Greger. You're serious
It is me that is confused.

I'm not religious and you know that so I don't know why you're referring to devine special species of god. That's ridiculous.

Why are catholic priests getting away with it?
Are you saying it's just their nature?

Honest, Greger, I'm not trying to be querulous.
I'm trying to make the connection between priests sexually abusing little boys for a whole bunch of years and getting away with it and snide remarks about flaying and stoning (guilty as charged).

I don't know why this thread turned so weird.



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Those priests got away with it for several reasons. The first is the relationship between the kid's upbringing and the exalted status of the priest. Kids report a lot of gas-lighting by priests who feed them a lot of BS about "special relationships", "God's Love", etc.. Priests are all trained to deliver this sort of crap to their followers, so doing it to kids is easy for them. Remember an average 100 IQ ten year old, is like an adult with an IQ of 67: In other words, a moron. They believe what adults tell them, and they are totally conditioned to believe any sort of nonsense a priest tells them. Their parents do!

The second reason is that their parents don't believe them if they do speak up. Their parents have the same sort of relationship with priests, and all parents (not just Catholics) are aware their kids are perfectly willing to lie to get out of trouble.

The third reason is a church hierarchy that values a priest far more than a few dozen molested kids, and believes in redemption. Their superiors have all experienced sin and forgiveness in their lives, so they forgive and accept a promise to "sin no more". Then they move the redeemed priest off to a new parish so he can molest a fresh crop of kids. And of course, in some cases the superior did the same thing himself when he was a new priest.

The fourth reason is the rule that all organizations try to hide stuff that reflects badly on the organization. This is why we need mandatory reporting, and conspiracy prosecution for anybody who fails to report any kind of sexual assault to the police.

The fifth reason is that a lot of the police and prosecutors may refuse to arrest or prosecute priests for religious and cultural reasons.

When you have all those things going against you, it's easy to just keep silent and try to forget about it.


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It’s my guess that these sorts of shenanigans in the Catholic Church are diminishing. The reason for that being is that the spotlight is totally on them unlike 30 years ago when most of the parishioners did not believe this sort of thing could be happening. Although many years ago John Callahan (bless his heart) drew a cartoon whereby a group of Catholic priests were sitting around a big cake and an altar boy popped out of the top much to their glee. devilSo it was known for quite some time that these sorts of things were happening even if, as I say, most of the parishioners did not believe so.

Callahan himself claimed to have been molested by a nun when he was eight.

Elsewhere, who knows?


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I had never heard of John Callahan.

From wiki....
" He began drinking at the age of 12. "I used the alcohol to hide the pain of the abuse," Callahan said. After the car accident that caused his spinal cord injury, he went through extensive rehabilitation. At the age of 27, he gave up drinking alcohol. He made his home in Portland, Oregon."

I guess this is one little boy that really didn't "like" the sex (abuse)..

You give me much to think about as far as your opinions.



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How does one post a photograph on this site?


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If I can figure out how to post his cartoon I would do so as I have the specific one referenced in my photos. In the meantime here’s some more information on John Callahan:

John Callahan


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Well this was so ridiculously difficult for me to do I hope you guys can open it. And I hope you find it funny after me getting pissed off trying to figure out how to do this thing.

[img]https://share.icloud.com/photos/0b-LdBFYFcxEH1O-05KDX-EVA[/img]


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LOL

Good one Ken. smile


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You post piccys like this - easy, peasy. laugh


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Imgur is the simplest and free-est way to bring photos here. Most can be stolen by downloading and renaming them, then send them up to Imgur and on to here.


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It just not Catholic Priests and boys, it's Christian Pastors and girls too.

Is religion the common denominator? Hmm


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Originally Posted by pdx rick
It just not Catholic Priests and boys, it's Christian Pastors and girls too.

Is religion the common denominator? Hmm
That's an interesting question, Rick.

I've tried hard to not broad brush and for the most part I've succeeded but anymore, barely.
When did evangelical christians morph into the sexual misbehaving Republican party (or the other way around)?

I know a number of christians who are the kindest most compassionate people I know and they "get" it.
But I know more that just confound me. Family members even.

I'm not religious but being from the south of course I was raised in the Southern Baptist tradition so I got the rudimentary basics of what christianity was "supposed" to be about.
I don't get it.



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https://www.npr.org/2021/07/02/1012...n-settlement-with-sexual-abuse-survivors

If you search for “scouts” on NPR.org you’ll find related stories. But no - not just churches.


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The Protestant version seems to be all about Patriarchy and ownership of wives and children. Pretty Old Testament stuff, though you would think this was more common among Jews, as that being their Holy Book. But it isn't. Quiverful, and home schooling. Pedophiles LOVE home schooling.

Mormons have a pretty recent history of trading 12 year old daughters back when the mainstream Mormons could practice polygamy. Now it's just excommunicated Jack Mormons. Despicable, what they do to those poor kids.

And Olyve, I never meant to imply that most kids enjoy being molested. But really competent child molesters do everything to convince their victims that it was a pleasant experience. This is one reason why so many women report being molested, and so few convictions occur. What my dad did to my sister was horrible, but at the time she thought it was wonderful. And finding out it wasn't, can be very disturbing to the victim.


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Originally Posted by pondering_it_all
The Protestant version seems to be all about Patriarchy and ownership of wives and children..
Conservatives seem quite a bit upset with Pete Buttilege taking parternity leave. These people sound like they had fathers who worked alf of time and nary had time to raise their own children and evident by the conservative response. Hmm


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Obviously, they are not so much upset about paternity leave as much as paternity.


We're flying electric helicopters on Mars yet you can't turn on your clothes dryer in Texas. That's because scientists are in charge of Mars, and Republicans are in charge of Texas.
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