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pdx rick #338937 11/28/21 08:41 PM
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Greger, why are you dancing around this question?

  • Please list three positives that Conservatives bring to the table.


Contrarian, extraordinaire


chunkstyle #338938 11/28/21 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by chunkstyle
Did you? I doubt it. If I were to guess, you read or listened to someone else who had claimed to.

I did listen to skeptics and used common sense. Bill Binney for starters.
Similar to WMD’s, yellow cake uranium, freedom fighters and on and on. The PMC were hysterics then. Muted defiance now.

How bout those recent revelations of the Steele dossier?
Some embarrassing indictments lately..
Lots of retractions at Bezos times, the New Yorker and New York Times.
Barr did Dem Corp a favor slow rolling the investigation. Imagine the recent indictments and revelations happening during the election…

You got stampeded.
Show your work, my friend. I challenge your assertions - i.e., "didn't happen".


A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
pdx rick #338939 11/28/21 08:45 PM
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You know this great experiment in democracy called the United States went south the moment the children of the Age of Enlightenment compromised with the South to give their free labor 3/5 of a vote.

That compromise has given us nearly 400 years of not dealing with America's original sin: racism

Frankly, I don't find value in compromise - nobody gets what they want. The only way forward is to separate us, peacefully, as two countries with a five year intermediate transition period.


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rporter314 #338940 11/28/21 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rporter314
Quote
Maybe all it means is they’re not living in the real world
Let's start with that.

Quote
neither side is destroying America
this requires some thinking and analysis.

You apparently believe the party which conducted an insurrection is not a Democracy destroying process. That I find remarkable. The very statement rebuts your belief neither side is trying to destroy America. The very act of insurrection is a deconstruction of the government. Wait a sec ... it just occurred to me ... you may be saying dissolution of the federal government is not the same as destroying America. hmmm .... I see your point. The Constitution is just toilet wipe, and should be disposed as soon as Trumpites have finished trampling all over it. But that is not destruction of America.

Should I mention the opener???
On another site that shall remain nameless, I started a thread: Neo-fascism, Trumpism, and the Republican Party. The point is, there is a fundamental difference between the major parties, at present, and one DOES represent a serious threat to the nation. I'll import a bit of that discussion, because there are references there that are relevant here.

"First, a definition: "Neo-fascism" is a generalized movement that includes 'https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultranationalism', 'https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_supremacy', populism, authoritarianism, nativism, xenophobia and anti-immigration sentiment as well as opposition to liberal democracy, parliamentarianism, liberalism, Marxism, communism and socialism. There are formal neo-fascist parties, such as the MSI in Italy, National Front in the UK, and the Union Movement for pan-European fascism. More recently, however, it has been seen as a subset, or descriptor for extreme far-right nationalistic parties that pursue the policies described above.

I have supported both Republican and Democratic candidates in the past, and had been fairly conservative in my politics for decades. But I have watched the Republican party, as a whole, drift ever rightward during my lifetime, especially following the election of Ronald Reagan in 1980, so that's my focus here.

The election of Donald Trump and the advent of Trumpism since 2016 has engendered a marked acceleration of adoption of what I believe are neofascist policies. Some already existed within the GOP, but were deemed "fringe", previously: Anti-immigration policies, anti-social policies, and white nationalism (although coded and disguised - like Nixon's "southern strategy", Reagan's "welfare queen" and Bush's "Willie Horton" ad). But Trump brought in, wholesale, elements of strongman politics, authoritarian instincts (and purveyors), populism, undisguised racism and xenophobia, and anti-democratic policies (Dick Cheney's and Bill Barr's versions of "unitary executive action"). The Republican party has now broadly adopted them.

Which leads to the legitimate question, is the Republican party now functionally, or officially, a neo-fascist party? Given the definitional elements described above, why, or why not?"


A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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pdx rick #338942 11/28/21 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by pdx rick
Originally Posted by Greger
Actually the Mueller investigation turned up no criminal activity except the obstruction of justice charge, which was basically an early Trump gaffe when he tried to shut the investigation down...
Actually that isn't true.

Mueller DID find Trump had committed crimes, but Mueller's undestanding was the he, Mueller, wasn't given the authority to charge Trump and his role was limited in scope, and left the charging up to Congress and Mueller specifically wrote that if the Special Counsel’s Office felt they could clear the president of wrongdoing, they would have done so.

The Mueller report details multiple episodes in which there is evidence that Trump obstructed justice. The pattern of conduct and the manner in which the President sought to impede the investigation - including through one-on-one meetings with senior officials.

Despite chants of “no collusion,” the Mueller's report shows a wide-ranging conspiracy (a/k/a collusion) aimed at undermining United States democracy and aiding Trump.
And it hasn't abated since his ouster.


A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
pdx rick #338943 11/28/21 09:04 PM
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GQP darling Margie Taylor Greene wants to GOP to abolish OSHA because it is communism.

The poor dear doesn't quite get that a Republican President, Nixon, signed the bill into Law. Secondly, the poor dear doesn't understand how the government that she was elected work in, works.

And some want us to compromise and work with such individuals. HA! laugh


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Greger #338944 11/28/21 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Greger
And how many millions of republicans did that? Should we hate them all for that small deluded faction?

Never mind....

Of course we should...because they are all just that stupid and believe stupid stuff and a Republican vote should be a ticket to Prison. Because Republicans are stupid.

Only Democrats are clean and pure. My bad, for suggesting otherwise.
My friend, let's dismantle the strawman. Here's a question relevant to your assertions: Are these signs of intelligence?

Why do some still deny Biden’s 2020 victory? Here’s what the data says (Opinion, WaPo, Subscription) "According to a November poll from the Public Religion Research Institute, 68 percent of Republicans believe the election was “stolen” from Donald Trump. Only 6 percent of Democrats and 26 percent of independents say the same.";

The Red/Blue Divide in COVID-19 Vaccination Rates (Kaiser) "As of September 13, 2021, 52.8% of people in counties that voted for Biden were fully vaccinated compared to 39.9% of Trump counties, a 12.9 percentage point difference (Figure 1).";

Politicizing the Mask: Political, E...fecting Mask Wearing Behavior in the USA (NIH) "Empirical results provide evidence that the tendency to wear a mask while in public is significantly lower in counties where then-candidate Donald Trump found strong support during the 2016 presidential election. In addition, states with mask-wearing mandates tend to witness greater mask-wearing behavior."

I would think that stupidity is defined by deliberately doing/believing things that are contrary to reality or your own personal interests. It's not a minority - it is THE MAJORITY of party members.

Last edited by NW Ponderer; 11/28/21 09:17 PM.

A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
pdx rick #338945 11/28/21 09:24 PM
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My undergraduate degree was in political science, so I know a bit about political philosophy and the machinations of political activities and social adaptation. So, I'm genuinely interested in analyzing what is going on in our country.

Fascism is an actual political movement and method. It is anti-democratic, but often gains initial acceptance through democratic means.

Quote
Robert Paxton, a professor emeritus of social science at Columbia University in New York told Live Science that fascism is "a form of political practice distinctive to the 20th century that arouses popular enthusiasm by sophisticated propaganda techniques."

According to Paxton, fascism uses such propaganda to promote:
anti-liberalism, rejecting individual rights, civil liberties, free enterprise and democracy
anti-socialism, rejecting economic principles based on socialist frameworks
exclusion of certain groups, often through violence
nationalism that seeks to expand the nation's influence and power
Historically, fascists have opposed modernization "if that term means liberalism, democracy, Marxism, individualism, and feminism," Chris Wright, an adjunct assistant professor at City University of New York, said. On the other hand, fascists have favorited modernization "if the term means technological and economic advancement, military superiority, efficiency, and the glorification of speed and machines," Wright wrote in the essay "Reflections on Fascism."

Now, do any of those concepts sound familiar in our current context? In 1932 Franklin Roosevelt, a Democrat and fervent capitalist coopted whole cloth several planks of the American Socialist party. He adapted them and put them into practice, and the Socialist party never recovered. Similarly, the Trumpists of the Republican party have commandeered much of the rhetoric and positions of neofascist parties, and (like Hitler in post-WWI Germany), took over an existing political party and its apparatus. There are clear historical parallels. Feel free to discuss them or dispute them.

Last edited by NW Ponderer; 11/28/21 09:25 PM.

A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
NW Ponderer #338946 11/28/21 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by NW Ponderer
Originally Posted by chunkstyle
Did you? I doubt it. If I were to guess, you read or listened to someone else who had claimed to.

I did listen to skeptics and used common sense. Bill Binney for starters.
Similar to WMD’s, yellow cake uranium, freedom fighters and on and on. The PMC were hysterics then. Muted defiance now.

How bout those recent revelations of the Steele dossier?
Some embarrassing indictments lately..
Lots of retractions at Bezos times, the New Yorker and New York Times.
Barr did Dem Corp a favor slow rolling the investigation. Imagine the recent indictments and revelations happening during the election…

You got stampeded.
Show your work, my friend. I challenge your assertions - i.e., "didn't happen".

Is that how the law works? I have to prove a negative..
Here I thought it was the other way around. But it’s been fun. Corporate media personalities winding up everyone with shoes dropping soon snd big breaks in the case developing.
What ya git? Coupla procedural prosecutions and a whole lotta nothing. Coupla procedural convictions? That bout it?
I’m impressed after all that sound and fury.
Geraldo Rivera opening Al Capones vault during prime time was better. At least the hype leading up to it only lasted a coupla weeks. Dem Corp turned themselves into hysterical victorian housewives, as a wag observed.

Last edited by chunkstyle; 11/28/21 10:01 PM.
pdx rick #338947 11/28/21 10:14 PM
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Since 1965, up to 2018:

Republicans (28 years in power)
120 indictments
89 convictions
34 prison sentences

Democrats (25 years in power)
3 indictments
1 conviction
1 prison sentence

From this we draw the conclusion that both Parties are the same? Are Republicans inherently criminal or just stupid? Are Democrats smarter, so they get away with crimes? I'm not sure what is going on here, but Occam's Razor suggests Republicans think rules don't apply to them, and they can do anything they want even if it harms other people or American institutions.


We're flying electric helicopters on Mars yet you can't turn on your clothes dryer in Texas. That's because scientists are in charge of Mars, and Republicans are in charge of Texas.
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