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Greger Offline OP
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You never change things by fighting the existing reality.

So, what are we doing here besides fighting the existing reality?

Near as I can tell the only solution(new model) anyone is proposing involves getting rid of the opposing party somehow. Rick would divorce them and send them all far away from where he lives, down down down to the depths of the deep south where we are all too stupid to give a f*ck about anyway. Where we stupidly elect stupid candidates who do stupid things in their ongoing attempt to make America more stupid and less free.

But me and my family would need to pull up roots here and move out west to the land of earthquakes and wildfires, mudslides and droughts because Rick would be inconvenienced if he had to leave his ancestral homeland.

There doesn't appear to be any actual new model except one that doesn't include Conservatives.

Or one that doesn't include liberals.

Anyone who seeks a path forward is a RINO or DINO.

Politics is the new racism. And yall a bunch of racist motherf*ckers.


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Segregation, particularly by geographical means, is not a possibility. I’d guess it wouldn’t work for long anyway, given that the inclination for humans to fight runs so deep.

In the spirit of, “you can’t solve a problem until you actually understand what the problem is”, I’d venture that step one in a new model would be to agree that there is little understanding of ‘the problem’, then agree to discuss ideas about what the problem is while following some rules of order to keep the discussion from going off the rails.

I don’t think that’s a novel idea, we just don’t seem to do it anymore. Maybe that’s the problem?


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
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I’
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d venture that step one in a new model would be to agree that there is little understanding of ‘the problem’, then agree to discuss ideas about what the problem is while following some rules of order to keep the discussion from going off the rails.

Like Robert's Rules of Order? Like the rules for debate they use in congress? or maybe just the rules of etiquette.

Or our guidelines?

As many times as I have attempted to point out the hatred that exists here for conservatives (and progressives), it has fallen on deaf ears. As near as I can tell ReaderRant is no longer any different from the other hate sites. Conservatives are not welcome here. Progressives are not welcome here because they don't fall in line and worship everything that comes out of a Democrats' mouth.

We used to have some conservative posters here, but we ran them off with our giant brains superior debate skills....along with hatred, disrespect, and a total lack of understanding of the role conservatives play in government and society.


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Well, I was speaking more generally of humanity in my posts this morning. And having been recently on some real hate sites, and they are nothing like here (or RR is nothing like them).

One thing I have learned from far too much time on the 'good hate' sites is that I can't argue with sweeping generalizations, and the pretense of arguing bits and pieces of data (often false information) as a path towards solutions is folly.

I don't believe that there were ever any good ol' days among humans, or that honesty, integrity, good manners, etc., ever dominated any culture that I know of. And I hear you about in person interactions with all people - I was thinking of trying to describe a long-term working relationship that I have with a guy who identifies as a 'Libertarian', and is subscribing to a host of RWN conspiracy theories, who I consider to be one of my better friends... but we never talk about politics.

The internetosphere seems to have become a place of fewer and fewer rules, where 'free speech' means freedom to say anything, truth or lies. A great deal of forum interactions are nothing more than insult exchanges now, or talking past each other to try and win a point.

I don't want to participate in that.


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
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Well, I was speaking more generally of humanity

So now even my humanity is being questioned?

I am not a robot...okay...? Or a conservative. I'm a socialist and am perfectly content to be reviled by partisans on both sides.

Quote
I don't want to participate in that.

Me either, that's why I always turned down offers to go to those places.

Rick used to be a nice queer kid from Cali but look at the monster he's turned into after hanging out at those places...and his move to Portland so he could more easily participate in the violent demonstrations there...

As the only remaining moderator who comes here regularly, I've been trying to stem the tide of hate from creeping in here.

Thus far to no avail. Those other places use to be friendly hangouts too.


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Originally Posted by logtroll
I don't believe that there were ever any good ol' days among humans, or that honesty, integrity, good manners, etc., ever dominated any culture that I know of.

Quakers had a pretty good system

Talk about an antiquated system that had no chance of surviving in the modern world! If you cant burn or torture heretics occasionally, how could you keep control over a religion? When Quakers disagreed they would hold meetings, and if that didnt resolve the philosophical differences, one group moved away. No wonder it got so diverse that one no longer even has to be Christian or even straight to be Quaker, now called Friends.

Of course, when they turned into Republicans with power, bad things happened, think Hoover and Nixon, though Hoover did rehabilitate himself after leaving office.

TAT


Quote
Since early in the foundation of the Religious Society of Friends, Quakers have refused to take oaths, following Jesus' teaching of Matthew 5:34–37. Rather than swearing or taking an oath, Quakers instead answered "yea" or "nay" to questions, believing that swearing oaths was often a way to avoid telling the truth while appearing to do so, and that a person's word should be accepted as truth based on their reputation for telling the truth, rather than any oath sworn or taken. This was embodied in their quote "let your yea be yea and your nay be nay",[4] from James 5:12.

Later, when many Quakers became successful in business (such as Cadbury, Rowntree, Fry, etc.), they set a fixed price for goods on sale rather than setting a high price and haggling over it with the buyer, believing it to be dishonest to set an unfair price to begin with. By having fixed and reasonable prices, Quakers soon developed a reputation as honest businessmen, and many people came to trust them in trading and in banking.[1] Thus, the Quaker name or image was adopted by business ventures of non-Quakers, such as oats and oil companies, to imply their fair dealing in price and quality.

Other examples of ways in which Friends 'testify' or 'bear witness' to truth and integrity include such practices as:

making sure that one's words and actions flow from one's beliefs
speaking the truth, even when it is difficult
paying people fair wages for their work
giving one's employer the right amount of labor for one's pay
saying difficult things with grace and tact
receiving difficult sayings gracefully
guarding one's reputation for honesty, fairness, and fidelity
taking responsibility for one's actions and their results
fulfilling one's commitments
taking care of items entrusted to one
being open to the ideas of others but not being too easily swayed by them
confronting lapses in integrity in oneself and in others
giving credit to others for their contributions
assessing people and situations fairly and accurately
avoiding spending beyond one's means through the use of credit


Quote
The internetosphere seems to have become a place of fewer and fewer rules, where 'free speech' means freedom to say anything, truth or lies. A great deal of forum interactions are nothing more than insult exchanges now, or talking past each other to try and win a point.

I don't want to participate in that.


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Except that it's lonesome work
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I think in some cases religion, or rather religious practice, can be a force for good. I’ve known a Quaker like that, a few nuns, a Buddhist or two. On the whole, it’s my opinion that religions can cause much more harm than good.

I can usually tell when Ranters are getting bored IRL, because neck fur fluffs up, voices descend to the growl range, and pissing contests begin. There’s not much to gain from those threads and I don’t often read them.

Someone asked what we’re doing here.Years ago when I first came to the rant, I learned from other Ranters the art of a good argument, and from the (required) links, I learned all kinds of stuff. There was serious benefit every day.

A zen priest here once said that if two people were talking about a third (not present,) that was gossip, from a strict Zen interpretation. The two exceptions were if you were passing information at the request of person 3, or if you were passing information in case of an emergency.

Given the amount of time we spend barking at each other without providing backup information in the form of links - especially when the facts simply aren’t available to mere mortals such as ourselves - a lot of what ruffles feathers around here boils down to gossip.

In the tme I’ve been back, I’ve identified some voices - some I read as often as possible, some I read occasionally, and othersI disregard entirely.


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I'm not a big fan of ad hominids - those posters who spend more time attacking the poster than the argument. I don't put a lot of stock in the opinions of those unwilling to follow up, or provide sources. I like to read opposing viewpoints, but it is harder and harder to find such viewpoints represented in generalized media, rather than siloed viewpoint journalism. I have a few sources that I subscribe to and read regularly.

Here's my observation:

Over the last 20 or so years, basically since the installation of George Bush, Jr. by the Supreme Court in 2000, public discourse has become courser. Yes, it started much earlier than that - basically with Reagan, and his constant undermining of government, unions, and other institutions of stability, and Newt Gingrich, with his scorched-earth brinksmanship and "the other party is the enemy and out to destroy America" braying, but, at the time, they were generally outliers.

Then 9/11. It was a seismic influencer, as it undercut the very foundation of our national hubris. We, collectively, felt more vulnerable. For a time, brief as it was, though, we were brought together as a people by that common tragedy.

But, shortly thereafter, our confidence in the institutions that we relied on for stability began to fray. WMDs were never found, and apparently never existed, (as our maligned intelligence services apparently knew), but the politicos pursued their course despite that knowledge. And, we became mired in unwinnable wars, that we started, and people were doing things in our name that we found reprehensible, We lost confidence in the existing leadership, and dishonesty became de rigeur - a tool rather than something to be ashamed of when exposed.

Then we had the election of Barack Obama, which thrilled those who had the impression that we were turning a corner, socially, and panicked others who feared we were turning a corner, socially. The backlash was immediate, severe, and ugly. Things that formerly couldn't be voiced in polite company became rallying cries. The sides grew stark, and vitriolic.

Then the phenomenon of DJT occurred. Initially he was deemed a farce and fodder for late night comedy, then morphed into a nightmare, a juggernaut that brought out the most deplorable of the base - but he, and they, got away with it and became increasingly emboldened. Women were the first to march, but a series of tragedies - killings of unarmed black people - inspired a concerted and broadened effort at change, and resistance thereto. More killings followed, and other violence. Now it seemed it really was a matter of life and death to both sides. For one, actual people, for the other, a "way of life".

I think there are plenty of us in the middle who appreciate the fears of both camps, and the various sub-camps that make up the tribes. But, we talk quietly, so our voices are easily drowned out. I'm not a rah-rah partisan, but I have become increasingly alarmed at the state we're in, and the rifts we tolerate. I'm also getting tired of being shouted down.

There's one area where I completely disagree, Greger. Our community didn't drive conservative voices out, they largely took it upon themselves. Some were excised, it is true, but because they flouted the rules of decorum that we had, heretofore, assiduously followed.


A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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Politico recently (September) published an interview of George Will, Does ‘Conservatism’ Actually Mean Anything Anymore? I highly recommend it. I don't agree with George Will on most things, but no one can say he is not thoughtful in his conservatism. As he put it in the interview:

Quote
What do conservatives want to conserve? The answer is the American founding, which is basically three things. First, there is a constant human nature — we are not just creatures who acquire the impress of whatever culture we’re situated in. Second, there are natural rights — that is, rights that are essential to the flourishing of creatures of our constant human nature. Third, governments are, as the declaration said, instituted to “secure” — the most important word in the declaration —those rights, which preexist government. And the structure of government must be such that, in our Madisonian way, government is strong enough to protect the rights, but not too strong to threaten our rights.

That’s conservatism.
Now, THAT's someone I can have a conversation with, disagree with, and still find common ground. Whatever happened to that brand of conservatism?

Last edited by NW Ponderer; 11/30/21 03:52 PM.

A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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I don't understand conservatism. I also don't understand women.

Because I'm not one and can never see things through their filter.

But we can't really get along without either of them.

Like Yin and Yang spinning together, one preventing the excesses of the other.


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