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jgw #339265 12/06/21 01:41 PM
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Greger, this is for you.

ECONOMY
DECEMBER 6, 2021
Socialism, Capitalism Ratings in U.S. Unchanged

https://news.gallup.com/poll/357755...nt=morelink&utm_campaign=syndication

Socialism and the Federal Government are tied with 38% of all Americans having a positive view of both. Whether that is good or bad, you can decide. Same for political party having a positive view of socialism, 65% of those who affiliate or identify with the Democratic Party has a positive view, only 14% of Republicans do. No mention of independents.


It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.
perotista #339268 12/06/21 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by perotista
Socialism and the Federal Government are tied with 38% of all Americans having a positive view of both. Whether that is good or bad, you can decide. Same for political party having a positive view of socialism, 65% of those who affiliate or identify with the Democratic Party has a positive view, only 14% of Republicans do. No mention of independents.
The “debate” between socialism and capitalism is an excellent example of our human communication problem. While I don’t argue with the polling, or it’s impact on politics, I do take the position that it’s crazy!

I’ve worked the subject of what people understand the words socialism and capitalism to mean for decades, and the unwavering response has always been, “I think it means something different from what you think it means!”

This is a great market for doubt to be the product…


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
logtroll #339270 12/06/21 03:02 PM
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Millenials and X Gen have worked the subject of what people understand the words socialism and capitalism from an entirely different angle.

They are less doubtful about the meaning of government-provided healthcare, debt free education, and economic equality. They don't think it's "crazy at all. You don't even think the concept is crazy, you just know that the S-word is as offensive as the N-word and cannot be uttered in polite(Boomer) company.


Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...
Greger #339271 12/06/21 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Greger
You don't even think the concept is crazy...
The crazy concept I was meaning is that the words "socialism" and "capitalism" are polled at all, when people have a thousand different definitions for them. And by "working the subject" I mean that I have directly asked people who have strong opinions of what those two words mean for decades, and learned that they are essentially meaningless in general use without further definition (which an astonishing percentage can't provide). What's more, neither word has anything close to a pure existence in reality. It occurs to me that my understanding of socialism isn't connected to any definitions or published theories, it comes from thinking about what would be the best way for people to associate - so I don't even have a definition. Capitalism I've "studied" in more depth and I find it to be a mishmash of practicality and irrational greed and delusion. What's more, capitalism and socialism don't really even cover the same territory of human interaction, capitalism being basically just a tool for the exchange of goods and services (and for gaining power and dominance).

A poll relating to those words has about as much meaning as asking if folks prefer purple or peanut butter. It might be better to ask, "Would you like to see more, or less, organized community support for all citizens in the form of income security, healthcare, shelter, the common good, etc.?"

Of course, any poll that seeks to define the meaning of words in order to get to what people really think is doomed from the start, because the vast majority of people would find it too complex, and to be asking about things they had never thought about before.

The poll cited by Perotista only reveals which of the two words has had the better marketing campaign behind it - that would be the one selling doubt as its product (with little truth in advertising).

Let's hope that the M's and the GX'rs are actually thinking about the meaning of words and not just buying a sales pitch.


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
perotista #339274 12/06/21 04:59 PM
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Quote
Socialism and the Federal Government are tied with 38% of all Americans having a positive view of both.

So...Americans are ecstatic about their government and would never consider a serious change?

And they universally hate socialism?

Neither of these things is completely true.

I'm not suggesting that NOW is the right time to engineer massive social change. In fact, quite the contrary, as we witness the blowback against Democratic social programs. It's going to take time, a decade at least before we actually see much progress.

Some of us won't survive to see it.

The US can try to walk the narrow path down the middle, teetering between authoritarian capitalism and social democracy. Lenin tried the scientific approach in Eastern Europe but was followed up with Stalin's brutalism and the evolution of the USSR. The groundwork has been laid many times for social upheaval but almost invariably some brutalist regime sends socialism back to the drawing board in favor of cash and profits.

So I'm not suggesting the Democratic Party suddenly embrace socialism. How could it..? It's an entirely capitalist organization. The left/right economic/political/social divide lands right between capitalism and socialism. You can move the goalposts wherever you want, but what we have is two(2) right-wing parties. One maybe not quite so far right but dedicated still to the monied elite more than to the great unwashed and exploited.

What I'm suggesting instead is that the Democratic Party bide its time, capitulate, out-think its opponents and bring about a more egalitarian society, even through capitalist means if that is possible...I don't think it is.


Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...
jgw #339281 12/06/21 06:45 PM
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Oh, I forgot one other little thing about "socialism". Many, who know who Hitler was still think that socialism has something to do with Hitler as he took the mantle of "Socialism". Before anybody says, his connection to "Socialism" was baloney. That being said its another problem for the term.

jgw #339285 12/06/21 10:52 PM
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Jgw has a good point. My parents did associate socialism with Hitler and his National Socialist German Workers' Party or the shorter version National Socialist Party, NAZI. It’s was all in a name. Much like my generation equated Socialism with the old USSR, United Soviet Socialist Republic or communism. I haven’t the faintest idea how the younger one’s associate socialism with.

It does seem like every individual has his own definition of socialism. Usually something like government control of everyone and everything with the government deciding what to give and how much to the people while the government ownd everything. With the ruling elite, government workers living high off the hog while everyone else lives in poverty. Others view socialism as cradle to grave government care with no regard to personal responsibility, merit and ethics, hard work etc. Again, government deciding what everyone gets or doesn’t get. Along with government folks living high off the hog.

I never gave much thought to socialism or capitalism for that matter. Greger does seem right in that socialism is about as offensive to many if not most Americans as the N word. Probably because they equate socialism with the bad guys of the world. Total government control over a person’s life. To me socialism is just another form of political philosophy, like conservativism, liberalism, progressivism, libertarianism and just about every other ism one can think of. I’m probably totally wrong, but unlike many Americans, I don’t get upset about socialism in just about any form. I figure the people will decide how much of socialism and or capitalism or both or a hybrid type of both they want.


It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.
perotista #339305 12/07/21 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by perotista
I figure the people will decide how much of socialism and or capitalism or both or a hybrid type of both they want.

I would love to see you give credible numbers to prove that figure.

jgw #339307 12/07/21 03:55 PM
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I figure is the about the same as I think. Numbers, I don't have. But unlike most if not all on this site, I think this country has been moving left beginning with FDR. Slowly, but surely.

As for numbers, elections indicat which way folks want to go. When one party goes too far one way or the other, the people elect the other party. Little steps are fine, gigantic steps meets with opposition as it take those unwash folks in the middle out of their comfort zone. Perhaps the best strategy is slow, but steady. The problem with that is you have quite a lot of folks who want everything right now.


It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.
perotista #339313 12/07/21 06:05 PM
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Trying to explain how bad "socialist" is considered is a complete and utter waste of time to those who insist on using the word. Its really weird. Those who favor the 'title' seem to be more interested in defending the word than what they think it defines. The battles over this have been going on, here, for a very long time. Every now and then I will dive in when I have nothing better to do but I know from the offset its a complete and utter waste of time.

In other words there are folks determined to use the word even though it does them no favor. Its almost like the logic behind the Anti-vaccers. The difference, however, is that nobody dies.

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