Originally Posted by Issodhos
That aside, your concern over libertarian thought not being a �governing� philosophy compared to the current master/slave system you currently support, NWP, could be clouding your objectivity.

Originally Posted by NW Ponderer
Wow, in one sentence, a veritable treasure trove of fallacious argument (e.g., Nizkor Project - fallacies), misdirection (non-sequitur), aspersion (ad hominem), strawman... (See, 1, 13, 17, 23, 27, 41... impressive) - but I detect no substantive response. To which I respond: 1) I did not make a comparative claim (strawman/false dilemma); 2) There is nothing clouding my objectivity (ad hominem); 3) nor did I reference or subscribe to a "master/slave system" (non-sequitur/appeal to ridicule/false dilemma, etc., etc.)

Originally Posted by NW Ponderer
If you think about it, the problem off Somalia is libertarianism in a microcosm. Here you have the "free market" at work. Pirates Entrepreneurs in Somalia have identified a means of making money and they are exploiting the local resource (Gulf of Aden) to get ransom money profits (call it a toll) from shippers transiting their locality. Shippers are willing to pay (willing buyers) to the Somali pirates entrepreneurs (willing sellers) for the privilege of using the waterway. Shippers have a choice - they can arm their ships and make it more difficult for the pirates entrepreneurs, but then the cost of ransom the toll will go up; they can ship further away and avoid the Gulf of Aden, but that will add to the expense of shipping, and, after all, only a small percentage of their shipping is subject to this free-lance toll process. This is pure libertarian market economics.

Anyone see any flaws in this example?

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Originally Posted by Schlack
Interestingly a lot of the pirates were originally fishermen who were fished out of a livlihood by large fishing companies, as somlaia was unable to defend its territorial waters and fishing grounds.

But i do see a problem using somalia as an example of ibertarianism in action. from what ive read from Isshodos, that there is agreement on the principles through which freedom of action is limited and limited though laws.

however Somalia is an anarchic laweless hell hole, pretty far from the ideal (sorry Isshodos) libertarian orientated society described.

Its the lack of laws and agreement i think are the main difference.

what the reality or consequences of libertarian orientated society would be is actually anyones guess. I share many peoples suspicions that it would be unworkable or would end up a Dickensian nightmare.

I share the suspicion that it could descend into a somalia (mad max) like situation....

It is inevitable that this Libertarian fantasy would descend into chaos.

Where in the world does Issodhos get the strange idea that people obey laws --- unless they are forced to?

And who, in the Cloud-Cuckooland of Libertarianism, is to enforce the laws? Obviously, they would be the people with the guns and the money!

Sound familiar?

Libertarianism might work if human beings were not the irrational, obsessive, short-sighted creatures that they are. They would need to be cool, clear-witted, maximizers of economic benefit for themselves, yet they would need to have enough social consciousness and identification with long-term goals to be able to keep an orderly society from breaking down.

It is superfluous to note that such paragons of humanity could make almost any political system flourish!

Indeed, the perfect humanity necessary to Libertarianism vaguely reminds me of another utopian ideal --- the "New Socialist Man" of the Communist paradise of Marx and Engels! wink

Originally Posted by Issodhos
A libertarian solution would be based on property rights.

Perhaps this is the core of the Libertarian fallacy. It is just a variation on the old shell-game of those with money and property --- BIG money and property!

In the Real World, there is a lot more to human society, and individual human life; but Libertarians are simple-minded folk, with simple-minded ideas, and their ideas about property are a hive of bees swarming in their bonnets, through whose buzzing confusion they cannot manage to see the world as it is.

Last edited by numan; 05/19/09 08:35 PM.